In case of coupling caps, we have measured distortion only in case of unrealistic testing conditions. That means, 10 times or more higher low frequency -3dB corner than we normally use in our designs. Under normal conditions of LF cut off corner of some 2Hz, there was no distortion.
You can always push it to get what you want. Take yours, Johns, mine power amplifier and load it with 0.4 ohm resistor and measure at 10Vrms output. Wow, it distorts! Or, it breaks the fuse! How bad!This is the same example, absolutely unrealistic test condition, load 10x different that it should be, same as in the capacitor test.
BTW, I use neither electrolytic nor tantalum caps in the signal path, just wanted to debunk the myth and open eyes on testing conditions.
Look guys you are confusing something John, Walt and I did 30 years ago with the better pratices we use and know about today. It wasnt sub audio cut-off back then nor servos nor a lot of things.
Today is a better audio world partly because we did show just what you said and that changed a lot of audio mfr. ever since.
I just took it to the nth degree and afterward made cfa direct-coupled topology and suggested to Walt to servo his IC preamp. Now you are up to date.... and the practices flowed out of that furtile time paved the way to what we do now.
So now we can all agree what is needed and how to do it best way even if you want to use a polar cap.
THx-RNMarsh
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Sorry Elvee, you seem unusually bitter. I just want to get my head around this.
In your original post # 66836 the three curves are specified as V(n001,1), V(n001,3) and V(n002,2). It looked to me that in the last one the 'reference' was different than in the other ones, maybe there was a typo. That would explain the unusual result.
Jan
Is it? I know you guys like playing numbers games and creating various Bogey Men for the neurotics, but you never demonstrate that any of it is really meaningful.
I'd hazard that audibly transparent electronics were being pretty routinely produced well before your "tests." There's a lot of hand-waving, but I would really like to see it demonstrated that the Pioneer SA-7700 integrated amp I bought as a teenager back in the '79s is audibly distinguishable from what you would consider a cutting edge amp today of the same power rating.
As the saying goes, talk is cheap, and so-called "high end" audio is just a lot of talk.
se
You're the guys who have been doing all the talking this past "30 years." Time for a little action. But I don't see that happening as all you have to do is keep impressing laypersons.
se
I think it is the internet. What was known and accessible only by a few select people in the past, now is known and accessible by everyone.
The reference for the single cap and the shunt combination is the signal for the generator output (n001).
For V(n002,2), it is different because it is the series combination, and to measure the voltage across one of the caps, the reference has to be the connection between the two caps (n002)
I own the Pioneer. And I also build many CFA. You forget that even small difference is audible. Or you cannot hear differences well?
That's good John. I believe you will have a more spacey ('airy') sound with the copper wire because of the feedback echo. Don't forget about the tribolectric effect though between the sleeving and the conductor proper as Frank has pointed out. And, a bit of verdigris does wonders for the highs - such is the magic of copper.
Ok, back to my scotch. It's amazing - after 2 doubles, things become much clearer to me, especially with this electrical engineering stuff. Maybe after 3 I'll be able to discuss physics.
More l8r
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OK! So now I understand why two of the curves are the same while the other was different!
So in two cases it shows the voltage across the single- and // caps, but in the 3rd case it shows the voltage across one of the series caps, not across the 'total capacitance'.
Thanks for the clarification.
Now I need to think about what conclusions we can draw from that graph....
Jan
The whole hullabaloo about silver cables has been taken in a completely wrong manner, in my view.
John mentions silver cable, and the "science" fedayeen are all over him. And this in spite of the fact that he very clearly indicated that he was referring to a specific brand and model of silver cable.
He didn NOT say that silver cable sounds better by default, just because it's silver and not copper. Silver is a material, for which there are numerous sources, and exactly like copper, not all are the same. The fact indicates that there are differneces which should be anticipated. I use silver cable for interconnects, however before choosing the ones I currently use (by Taiwanese manufacturer Neotech), I discarded 6 other possible choices as lacking in one way or another. The ones I do use I do so because they offer a cleaner sound than any copper version I have ever come across. If I should run into a better yet copper wire, I have no problem in changing.
The switch made in the discussion was going from specific to generic. Silver as such may not do anything for the sound because they are not all the same. Exactly like copper cables are not all the same. IT takes time and patience to find a really good one, again exactly like copper cables. Then you need to put up with it for a month or two before it sorts itself out, and sometimes the sound will improve, other times it won't. You never know until you've tried it, so be prepared for possible letdowns.
All my speaker cabling is by VDH, but I agree with John that using VDH for internal cabling is not a good idea. Neotechc's silver cables are a much better idea, as they show up much more of what's going on in the program material. Just listen to the difference. It has nothing to do with any religion, or any sworn alliance to any type or any manufacturer, if it sounds better, I'll use it.
So all this hullabaloo about silver cables is the exact opposite of what scientists would do, I think they'd try first and talk later, not vice versa.
John mentions silver cable, and the "science" fedayeen are all over him. And this in spite of the fact that he very clearly indicated that he was referring to a specific brand and model of silver cable.
He didn NOT say that silver cable sounds better by default, just because it's silver and not copper. Silver is a material, for which there are numerous sources, and exactly like copper, not all are the same. The fact indicates that there are differneces which should be anticipated. I use silver cable for interconnects, however before choosing the ones I currently use (by Taiwanese manufacturer Neotech), I discarded 6 other possible choices as lacking in one way or another. The ones I do use I do so because they offer a cleaner sound than any copper version I have ever come across. If I should run into a better yet copper wire, I have no problem in changing.
The switch made in the discussion was going from specific to generic. Silver as such may not do anything for the sound because they are not all the same. Exactly like copper cables are not all the same. IT takes time and patience to find a really good one, again exactly like copper cables. Then you need to put up with it for a month or two before it sorts itself out, and sometimes the sound will improve, other times it won't. You never know until you've tried it, so be prepared for possible letdowns.
All my speaker cabling is by VDH, but I agree with John that using VDH for internal cabling is not a good idea. Neotechc's silver cables are a much better idea, as they show up much more of what's going on in the program material. Just listen to the difference. It has nothing to do with any religion, or any sworn alliance to any type or any manufacturer, if it sounds better, I'll use it.
So all this hullabaloo about silver cables is the exact opposite of what scientists would do, I think they'd try first and talk later, not vice versa.
Clifforest expressed himself in an under-cooled, civilized way, taking into account the nature of the postings of the subject to which his comments were addressed .
Look at it as an exhibitionistic SM game.
Frank drivels his nonsensical posts together, and waits for the first one to whip him over his statements. As far as I can see, this is a consenting adult kind of activity, which both parties enjoy doing.
The only thing you can say about Frank is that he outsluts Paris Hilton, seeing that he doesn't mind being taken by everyone with the gusto to do so.
No citations for this. We can use citations when we speak about scientific experiments.
Progress in sound quality (which is a subjective term) to me is based on listening comparison, even blind comparison, between vintage amplifiers and some SOTA products (I will not provide you with names if you ask me for them). To me, my subjective opinion which I do not request to be approved by yourself. I do not need it.
I strongly distinguish between scientific experiment (like distortion measurement in a defined circuit) and something that cannot be proven by the data posted at web page.
You may disagree, of course. Just to mention it is my final remark on this subjective topic, I am not here to waste my time in useless arguing.
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