The first time I listened to the Betsys, I was surprised that they seemed to sound like just what they were made out of - paper. It's not nearly so obvious anymore, probably because I got used to them and maybe it diminished as they broke in.
Every fullranger with whizzer i ever heard had a colored sound and started to disturb after a while.
Every fullranger i ever heard had some limititations, but did also something very right in macrodynamics and attack.
It was very long time ago when I used Lowther and SET. I had decided that they were not for me. But I think there could be a reason why the whizzer is still used by expensive fullrange like Feastrex. At least suitable for certain purpose? It cannot be that everyone is stupid, right? 😀
Esperado, you don't even use a tweeter. Of course, you won't have a problem with high frequencies. '-)
Well done.
This said, i'm 70 years old while my horn is flat up to 16KHz. And could achieve with very few distortion > 130db spl if i was insane enough to try-it.
Christophe,
My first diy speakers were a set of vintage JBL D130's and a pair of 1" exit Altec drivers on my own designed 800hz radial horn. At the time most people who heard them thought that they sounded great. Not sure what I would think of them today.
My first diy speakers were a set of vintage JBL D130's and a pair of 1" exit Altec drivers on my own designed 800hz radial horn. At the time most people who heard them thought that they sounded great. Not sure what I would think of them today.
It is a good looking horn that you have, but what is the real limit of the driver? My experience differs from yours.
Keantoken,
I'm not sure of the title of the paper anymore but there were some really old papers that discussed this in the old AES loudspeaker journal. I'll see if I can find my copy and send you the title of the paper.
I'm not sure of the title of the paper anymore but there were some really old papers that discussed this in the old AES loudspeaker journal. I'll see if I can find my copy and send you the title of the paper.
Chriatophe,
Most of the larger format and even many of the smaller pancake drivers using aluminum diaphragms roll off pretty fast at 16Khz, I can't think of any that really could work much above that and not start to break up pretty badly. Even the TAD 1" Be driver doesn't have much of a chance getting over 20Khz cleanly and this is why I combined those TAD drivers with the ET703 super tweeter. That would be the answer for Johns need for some extra top end but the price of those devices is just so out of line who can afford them.
Most of the larger format and even many of the smaller pancake drivers using aluminum diaphragms roll off pretty fast at 16Khz, I can't think of any that really could work much above that and not start to break up pretty badly. Even the TAD 1" Be driver doesn't have much of a chance getting over 20Khz cleanly and this is why I combined those TAD drivers with the ET703 super tweeter. That would be the answer for Johns need for some extra top end but the price of those devices is just so out of line who can afford them.
I tried, Steven. I tried hard. Was never satisfied. Super tweeters added trebles, but i always felt it as "trebles". I never hear "trebles" in real life, if you see what i mean. Just cymbals when it is about cymbals.
And it added distortions.
As-it, i feel my system very natural. I don't miss anything. Why to add more ?
Last edited:
I found some full range speaker is useful to get familiar with how the speaker should sound without phase issues in mid-range area. Even 1 Watt will do.
Adding super tweeter is NOT easy at all because of the phase issue (I have no success here either). That's why you recognize their existence as "trebles". But if the top frequency was right, you only need to experience it and be familiar with it to be able to miss it when it is not available.
Christophe,
Your correct it isn't easy integrating two devices that high in frequency, what I did was cut the lower compression driver down low enough that the integration was more seamless and easier to accomplish. If you only try to add above 16Khz the center distances mess things up and it is easier to identify the added top end. I think I was using a 10Khz crossover point if I remember correctly. When you say cymbals that is exactly what I noticed the difference with, I could easily for the first time identify the highest frequencies and what I was I was hearing rather than just adding some sparkle that usually is just noise whit most attempts to do this. I could tell the different between a really small triangle getting hit and a cymbal, it was an eye opener. As close to live as I have ever heard. To bad those devices became so expensive, nothing was like them that I know of with a tiny little diffraction lens. One of these days when I make the big bucks again I will recreate that system but you are looking at 10K$ just for 4 compression drivers at today's prices.
Your correct it isn't easy integrating two devices that high in frequency, what I did was cut the lower compression driver down low enough that the integration was more seamless and easier to accomplish. If you only try to add above 16Khz the center distances mess things up and it is easier to identify the added top end. I think I was using a 10Khz crossover point if I remember correctly. When you say cymbals that is exactly what I noticed the difference with, I could easily for the first time identify the highest frequencies and what I was I was hearing rather than just adding some sparkle that usually is just noise whit most attempts to do this. I could tell the different between a really small triangle getting hit and a cymbal, it was an eye opener. As close to live as I have ever heard. To bad those devices became so expensive, nothing was like them that I know of with a tiny little diffraction lens. One of these days when I make the big bucks again I will recreate that system but you are looking at 10K$ just for 4 compression drivers at today's prices.
Those are great looking super tweeters! I would be suspicious of any speaker that can't reach 20KHz, as far as using for serious listening comparisons.
Speakers ?
Yeah , what we are actually hearing !
I must disagree that only "high end" speakers are worthy of accurate reproduction.
For my critical amp listening , I have these - X-LS Encore kit
Actually , the Colombian made AV123 (same thing).
Bigger Dayton 2-ways for about the same 200$ in Mission tower cases - sound about the same (with better <60hz response).
Neighbor has a parasound A31 and signature S6's. The S6's do sound better -
they can handle those peaks better. But not too much better - 20X better (3k
versus my 2-300$ blasters).
He let me "unload" my new Slewmaster into those S6's - WOW ! Wish I had
some crazy money. 😀 Not the sound , but the sheer level/clarity @ 300W !! 😱
The Paradigm's do sound close to my house speakers - at lower levels ,
but they are obliviously designed for highly accurate,ultra high playback levels.
The 3 K $ gets you >125db performance.
The Paradigm's mineral infused woofer is a larger magnet version of my
AV123 graphite plastic basket driver (much more wattage). No "alien
tech" here. Fancy lingo and a fancy name - bet i could build some for < 700$.
OS
Yeah , what we are actually hearing !
I must disagree that only "high end" speakers are worthy of accurate reproduction.
For my critical amp listening , I have these - X-LS Encore kit
Actually , the Colombian made AV123 (same thing).
Bigger Dayton 2-ways for about the same 200$ in Mission tower cases - sound about the same (with better <60hz response).
Neighbor has a parasound A31 and signature S6's. The S6's do sound better -
they can handle those peaks better. But not too much better - 20X better (3k
versus my 2-300$ blasters).
He let me "unload" my new Slewmaster into those S6's - WOW ! Wish I had
some crazy money. 😀 Not the sound , but the sheer level/clarity @ 300W !! 😱
The Paradigm's do sound close to my house speakers - at lower levels ,
but they are obliviously designed for highly accurate,ultra high playback levels.
The 3 K $ gets you >125db performance.
The Paradigm's mineral infused woofer is a larger magnet version of my
AV123 graphite plastic basket driver (much more wattage). No "alien
tech" here. Fancy lingo and a fancy name - bet i could build some for < 700$.
OS
We can make the same comparisons with autos. Do we want basic transportation, or do we want performance? Performance costs much more! But the difference in practical reality is small, but exciting once in a while.
I came to my recent understanding of where most everyone was at in audio, because it reminded me of myself with sports cars.
I bought an Austin Healey Sprite (a Austin A20 engine hopped up to 65 Hz) and it probably could not easily get up to 100mph, BUT what fun! Still, it was not a real performance sports car, just something that made you feel like you were driving a sports car. Flexible chassis, close to the ground, cheap tires. Everything that would keep you from driving too fast. It worked!
A few years later I got a SAAB Sonnet and I thought [NOW I have a sports car! ] I even hopped it up with a twin carb, Koni shocks, milled head, and 3/4 cam. It too, was a lot of fun to drive, but it was not a performance sports car. It was just a dressed up sedan with a custom fiberglas body.] I drove it for more than 22 years, and finally lost it in a firestorm.
Then I got a 77 Porsche 924 that had upgraded suspension and tires from stock, but the tires were cheap replacements, not the recommended standard. When I finally changed to the proper tires, I came to understand what a real sports car was. Of course, it was not the best, or the most expensive, but it was the beginning of 'hi end' when it came to sports cars for me. At medium-high speeds, 80-100 mph, the 924 seemed to come alive, unlike my previous sports cars, and the cornering knocked my socks off!
It is the same with high fidelity loudspeakers.
You don't have to pay much just to get some recognizable sound quality.
But if you want real performance, it is going to cost more. I don't know of any other way.
I came to my recent understanding of where most everyone was at in audio, because it reminded me of myself with sports cars.
I bought an Austin Healey Sprite (a Austin A20 engine hopped up to 65 Hz) and it probably could not easily get up to 100mph, BUT what fun! Still, it was not a real performance sports car, just something that made you feel like you were driving a sports car. Flexible chassis, close to the ground, cheap tires. Everything that would keep you from driving too fast. It worked!
A few years later I got a SAAB Sonnet and I thought [NOW I have a sports car! ] I even hopped it up with a twin carb, Koni shocks, milled head, and 3/4 cam. It too, was a lot of fun to drive, but it was not a performance sports car. It was just a dressed up sedan with a custom fiberglas body.] I drove it for more than 22 years, and finally lost it in a firestorm.
Then I got a 77 Porsche 924 that had upgraded suspension and tires from stock, but the tires were cheap replacements, not the recommended standard. When I finally changed to the proper tires, I came to understand what a real sports car was. Of course, it was not the best, or the most expensive, but it was the beginning of 'hi end' when it came to sports cars for me. At medium-high speeds, 80-100 mph, the 924 seemed to come alive, unlike my previous sports cars, and the cornering knocked my socks off!
It is the same with high fidelity loudspeakers.
You don't have to pay much just to get some recognizable sound quality.
But if you want real performance, it is going to cost more. I don't know of any other way.
Another analogy would be a 700hp Dodge charger as opposed to a Ferrari.
204 mph vs. 363 km/h , but the latter cost 3-5X more.
Then there is the name - this also costs. 🙄
Those Paradigm's are indeed nicely constructed - possibly worth 3K$.
At least a "Dodge charger" pair of speakers - (quite the "horsepower") 😀.
PS - I could not imagine "farrari speakers ?? 10K$ realm ...
OS
204 mph vs. 363 km/h , but the latter cost 3-5X more.
Then there is the name - this also costs. 🙄
Those Paradigm's are indeed nicely constructed - possibly worth 3K$.
At least a "Dodge charger" pair of speakers - (quite the "horsepower") 😀.
PS - I could not imagine "farrari speakers ?? 10K$ realm ...
OS
Last edited:
I would suggest a bit optimistic about the >125dB levels - 91dB sensitivity in room, the numbers don't add up.
Use the calc - Peak SPL Calculator
-91db w/m
-2 speakers
-200w
-near a wall
- is 110db/10ft ,120db/meter, and 131db/1ft.
Some frequencies subdued , others are enhanced (by the room and/or
driver). In the same "ballpark".
OS
- Status
- Not open for further replies.