AB testing.
I built an A/B tester.
RCA input sockets for low level signals and two sets of 4mm dual (3/4 inch)sockets for speakers for outputs from two amps. These went to relays and the otput was two sets of RCA sockets for two amps and one pair of speaker sockets for the speaker.
So in one position the input of one amp is connected to the source and the output to the speaker being used. The other position switches the source signal to the second amp and the speaker is connected to that amp .
However I found it very hard to hear any differences unless they were really very large. I also realised that switching between amps while music is being played continuously is not conclusive because the track that follows the point of switching is never identical to the portion that went before.
Later when I removed the A/B unit , the amp sounded vastly better . So it is back to listening to musical sections and making the switch manually - no switches or extra sockets in between.
Cheers.
I built an A/B tester.
RCA input sockets for low level signals and two sets of 4mm dual (3/4 inch)sockets for speakers for outputs from two amps. These went to relays and the otput was two sets of RCA sockets for two amps and one pair of speaker sockets for the speaker.
So in one position the input of one amp is connected to the source and the output to the speaker being used. The other position switches the source signal to the second amp and the speaker is connected to that amp .
However I found it very hard to hear any differences unless they were really very large. I also realised that switching between amps while music is being played continuously is not conclusive because the track that follows the point of switching is never identical to the portion that went before.
Later when I removed the A/B unit , the amp sounded vastly better . So it is back to listening to musical sections and making the switch manually - no switches or extra sockets in between.
Cheers.
Hi,
You actually don't think I'd stop you, do you?
They have enough money cows to milk as is...Don't YOU give them any fancy ideas now....
Not that there actually isn't any $300 etc. solder out there already but still................
Cheers,😉
You actually don't think I'd stop you, do you?
They have enough money cows to milk as is...Don't YOU give them any fancy ideas now....
Not that there actually isn't any $300 etc. solder out there already but still................
Cheers,😉
I can't really tell a difference between nice cables for audio use.
I did notice however how cables affect VIDEO.
I was using 2 VCR's to copy tapes, and I first was using regular old skinny cheap RCA cables. I noticed after dubbing a few tapes that the quality of the video part of the recording didn't look as clear as the original, and the color was not as good. At first, I thought it was the dubbing process that lost the quality.
I tried later that week some new, thicker, better quality RCA cables, and dubbed again the exact same tapes, and it was a very noticable difference. The copies looked almost as good as the originals. 😱
Audio doesn't go much beyond 20khz, but video is in the Mhz range, so I think that input cable quality has mainly to do with quality of higher frequencies, and is not very noticeable with audio frequencies.
I say, keep it simple, and buy good high quality cables, but don't go overboard with it. Or better yet, just make the cables yourself. 😀
I did notice however how cables affect VIDEO.
I was using 2 VCR's to copy tapes, and I first was using regular old skinny cheap RCA cables. I noticed after dubbing a few tapes that the quality of the video part of the recording didn't look as clear as the original, and the color was not as good. At first, I thought it was the dubbing process that lost the quality.
I tried later that week some new, thicker, better quality RCA cables, and dubbed again the exact same tapes, and it was a very noticable difference. The copies looked almost as good as the originals. 😱
Audio doesn't go much beyond 20khz, but video is in the Mhz range, so I think that input cable quality has mainly to do with quality of higher frequencies, and is not very noticeable with audio frequencies.
I say, keep it simple, and buy good high quality cables, but don't go overboard with it. Or better yet, just make the cables yourself. 😀
Hi,
Sure does, but that often has more to do with the quality of the screening of said cables.
A good video cable doesn't necessarily make for a good audio cable but it's not a bad place to start especially if you lve in a RFI heavy environment and...who doesn't nowadays?
You'll also immediately notice a loss of quality with only so so connectors too.....
Cheers, 😉
Sure does, but that often has more to do with the quality of the screening of said cables.
A good video cable doesn't necessarily make for a good audio cable but it's not a bad place to start especially if you lve in a RFI heavy environment and...who doesn't nowadays?
You'll also immediately notice a loss of quality with only so so connectors too.....
Cheers, 😉
Yeah, but your excrementppy equipment probably affects your excrementppy signal, and your excrementppy final result far more than the mega$$$interconnects, which, of course, are beyond reproach....
Dear moderators - this is all meant in fun, and please don't kick my not so bleeepin' humbl....
NO CARRIER
Dear moderators - this is all meant in fun, and please don't kick my not so bleeepin' humbl....
NO CARRIER
phn said:
I am an academic.
Going to polytech was somewhat of a dissapointment because of the poor scientific standards : just trust the numbers.
Whatever rolls out of the computer calculation is regarded as the utter truth, student academics are taught to think alike.
My partner is a medical specialist, often she complaints on the rigid traditional beliefs of the medical academic world.
Read a scientific journal, it is filled with nonsense for the sake of publishing.
Speaker cable vs. analog and digital interconnect
For my part, I was just going for discussion about audible difference with speaker
cable. Digital interconnect is a whole different subject. Years ago, just before DAT,
we got a couple of those Sony PCM units, that used video tape. To transfer,
the manual said to use their special cable to connect digital out to digital in. We just
used a RCA/phono cable hanging on the rack, and it just didn't work. That was very
audible. You needed the right cable construction and impedance. Analog interconnect
happens at lower levels, so impedance has a greater effect.
As for a speaker wire A/B/X tests, Bear and others bring up good points. Using the
same amp and speakers, just how an A/B/X box would be hooked up. You'd have to
use one type of wire from box to amp or speaker, with both sets of test wire hooked
in parallel. Plus with relays and inner wiring, it gets rather messy.
I'm still interested, in some sort of testing, within the home setting of those who
feel they bought speaker cable, that makes a difference. Plus some curiosity and time.
Instead of a LCR/impedance match, I'm thinking of test cable, that only has roughly
the same resistance as their speaker cable. If it's some woven or boa sized cable, I'm
assuming the maker gives a clue as to the ohms per foot. Make a pair of test wires,
leave the room, and have somebody else either hook up the test wire, or leave the
original there. Coming back each day, to do one or the other, keeping track, with
no visual cues, and without letting you know. Say for 10 days. 1st, they have to
switch enough, so there's 5 days of one, and 5 days of the other. Hopefully at random.
2nd, if you're really curious, you won't peek. You'll just sit back, relax, and listen.
Perhaps with a known passage, and a familiar soundstage. And keep track on your own.
Science on the honor system. The cable tests I've read about, were done in labs, with
subjects, new to the room, amps, and speakers. But with the above, the test would
be done, by someone who built, listened, and knew their system well. Where the
only element that changed, was the wire between amp and speaker.
For 10 days, stepping into your listening room, you'd see two wires behind amp
and speakers, but wouldn't know which was hooked up. Copper or silver. Monster
or Ace Hardware. I assume, 5 days out of 10, with your own system, would be
enough, to tell one way or the other.
For my part, I was just going for discussion about audible difference with speaker
cable. Digital interconnect is a whole different subject. Years ago, just before DAT,
we got a couple of those Sony PCM units, that used video tape. To transfer,
the manual said to use their special cable to connect digital out to digital in. We just
used a RCA/phono cable hanging on the rack, and it just didn't work. That was very
audible. You needed the right cable construction and impedance. Analog interconnect
happens at lower levels, so impedance has a greater effect.
As for a speaker wire A/B/X tests, Bear and others bring up good points. Using the
same amp and speakers, just how an A/B/X box would be hooked up. You'd have to
use one type of wire from box to amp or speaker, with both sets of test wire hooked
in parallel. Plus with relays and inner wiring, it gets rather messy.
I'm still interested, in some sort of testing, within the home setting of those who
feel they bought speaker cable, that makes a difference. Plus some curiosity and time.
Instead of a LCR/impedance match, I'm thinking of test cable, that only has roughly
the same resistance as their speaker cable. If it's some woven or boa sized cable, I'm
assuming the maker gives a clue as to the ohms per foot. Make a pair of test wires,
leave the room, and have somebody else either hook up the test wire, or leave the
original there. Coming back each day, to do one or the other, keeping track, with
no visual cues, and without letting you know. Say for 10 days. 1st, they have to
switch enough, so there's 5 days of one, and 5 days of the other. Hopefully at random.
2nd, if you're really curious, you won't peek. You'll just sit back, relax, and listen.
Perhaps with a known passage, and a familiar soundstage. And keep track on your own.
Science on the honor system. The cable tests I've read about, were done in labs, with
subjects, new to the room, amps, and speakers. But with the above, the test would
be done, by someone who built, listened, and knew their system well. Where the
only element that changed, was the wire between amp and speaker.
For 10 days, stepping into your listening room, you'd see two wires behind amp
and speakers, but wouldn't know which was hooked up. Copper or silver. Monster
or Ace Hardware. I assume, 5 days out of 10, with your own system, would be
enough, to tell one way or the other.
Prune, I didn't mislead. The chair thing, or something such, is part of philosophy 101. But I was talking Aristotle. That fool of fools. I might have been unclear, but not misleading. I wrote that 2 am.
Positivist is somebody that only takes hard facts into account. If it can't be measured, it's of no value. Most history books are written by positivists. Most history books are bogus. I use "bogus" as a nicer word for fallacy. A naivist says there's more to human life than the material, that not everybody on the planet is a middle-aged white heterosexual male. That the hopes and fears of the close to 5 billion people on the planet aren't necessarily the hopes and fears of the middle-aged white heterosexual males that wrote the history books. THAT makes me a naivist. And I can see why Hawkins is a positivist. I wouldn't ask him about life any more than I would ask a priest. Neither of them knows anything about that.
"I fail to see what's wrong with oversampling if well implemented." But it never is. It's kind of like my pet peeve, the anti-skating. No matter how good, it's better without. Oversampling and anti-skating are only useful if you think sample-rate and tracking are more important than sound. Listen to Bruback's Time Out on a Naim, a Meridian, a Mark Levinson and a first version PlayStation. Not only will the PlayStation beat them all, chance is that you have never heard the Time Out album sound that good, including on vinyl! (The PlayStation works wonders for jazz, but is not very good at rock, much less electronic music.)
"A perfect description of your post." You're right. It's so much better hurling slogans at each other.
Positivist is somebody that only takes hard facts into account. If it can't be measured, it's of no value. Most history books are written by positivists. Most history books are bogus. I use "bogus" as a nicer word for fallacy. A naivist says there's more to human life than the material, that not everybody on the planet is a middle-aged white heterosexual male. That the hopes and fears of the close to 5 billion people on the planet aren't necessarily the hopes and fears of the middle-aged white heterosexual males that wrote the history books. THAT makes me a naivist. And I can see why Hawkins is a positivist. I wouldn't ask him about life any more than I would ask a priest. Neither of them knows anything about that.
"I fail to see what's wrong with oversampling if well implemented." But it never is. It's kind of like my pet peeve, the anti-skating. No matter how good, it's better without. Oversampling and anti-skating are only useful if you think sample-rate and tracking are more important than sound. Listen to Bruback's Time Out on a Naim, a Meridian, a Mark Levinson and a first version PlayStation. Not only will the PlayStation beat them all, chance is that you have never heard the Time Out album sound that good, including on vinyl! (The PlayStation works wonders for jazz, but is not very good at rock, much less electronic music.)
"A perfect description of your post." You're right. It's so much better hurling slogans at each other.
Indeed, I read that. As with my own arguments, it is based on theories that are not particularly well established. Exactly what will happen that far into the future is difficult to say for certain and depends on how fast the universe is expanding, among other things (certainly not faster than light, as you seemed to say).Prune said:
Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that if something were to happen that destroyed all life on earth, then the probability of survival for every other species is about zero. For humans, given that we have the means to leave (if not the will - yet), it is greater than zero.
Gentlemen (especially Frank and Prune): We've sent a few posts to Texas and left a few that are awfully marginal. Please confine your discussions to the issue at hand and not to each other's hearing abilities and intellectual capabilities.
(mod hat off)
Jacco, your description of European universities squares well with my experience.
slowmotion said:
Hi Jan,
The two camps are NOT interchangable. I never said "all cables sound the same". Maybe they do, maybe they don't. What I say is that until now I haven't seen it proven in a reliable, repeatable way, so as far as I am concerned it has not been shown that they do sound differently. So for me there is no reason to buy those expensive ones. And no, I have not heard cable differences myself, but if they are shown to exist (see above) I accept that my system or my ears not allow me to hear them too. Is this all so difficult to comprehend or accept? Isn't this standard logical reasoning or what?
I hope I don't have to repeat all those post where I quoted from studies, some by well regarded audio companies like Harman, that the judgement of sound quality of a component be it speaker, cable, amp, is very much determined by factors that have NOTHING to do with the actual sound, like color, size, design, price, your friends opinion etc.
So, if you say, I changed my cables and the new ones are really opening up the sound, I am ROTFLMAO, yes. You may not like that, but then you show me where I am wrong in my thinking.
Have a great 2005!
Jan Didden
Jan,
I wrote that late last night,
and I'm not very good with words either.
I think we agree on a lot of things,
and see things differently on other things 😉
I wish you a great 2005, too 😉
cheers 😉
I wrote that late last night,
and I'm not very good with words either.
I think we agree on a lot of things,
and see things differently on other things 😉
I wish you a great 2005, too 😉
cheers 😉
phn,
I have a hard time figuring you out.
So I probably mis-understand some of the things you say.
No big deal.
cheers 😉
I have a hard time figuring you out.
So I probably mis-understand some of the things you say.
No big deal.
cheers 😉
Forgot to mention, I used this Aristotleanism and positivism as examples because I'm being accused here of being an Aristotlean and positivist. I think I have made my point perfectly clear. I'm NOT an Aristotlean or positivist. I do NOT seek proof. Yet I'm being accused of not trusting myself for not having faith, for not sharing their superstitious beliefs. Worse, I'm supposed to take their snide remarks as not being insults!
It takes no brains to insult people. And I have done so here. But not without reasoning why. I don't go round calling people Transparent nuthuggers, even if they in fact are. But for the nth time, and to be as blunt as possible, it's for the nuthuggers on this forum to put out or shut up. And quoting Transparent's sales pitches does NOT count. It's either that or showing everybody what we're made of by calling each other names.
It takes no brains to insult people. And I have done so here. But not without reasoning why. I don't go round calling people Transparent nuthuggers, even if they in fact are. But for the nth time, and to be as blunt as possible, it's for the nuthuggers on this forum to put out or shut up. And quoting Transparent's sales pitches does NOT count. It's either that or showing everybody what we're made of by calling each other names.
jacco vermeulen said:I am an academic.
Going to polytech was somewhat of a dissapointment because of the poor scientific standards : just trust the numbers.
Whatever rolls out of the computer calculation is regarded as the utter truth, student academics are taught to think alike.
My partner is a medical specialist, often she complaints on the rigid traditional beliefs of the medical academic world.
Read a scientific journal, it is filled with nonsense for the sake of publishing.
Geeeeeeeh, Jacco,
I learnt just don't trust numbers, calculations, appproximations etc. Keep being critical, original, creative etc. etc.
Maybe this tough study were good for something...
Drs Elso
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