Hi all
It seems to me there are two main camps when it comes to cables:
On the one hand the people who read the cable-tests in glossy hifi-mags.
They read the magazines religiosly, and spend ridicilous amounts of money on fancy cables with shiny wrapping. As we all know these cables are all the best in the world,
and all the cablemakers all have their own fantastic theories explaining why their cables are the best there is.
On the other hand we have people who say that all cables sound the same,
and that anyone who think they can here differences i cables are fooling themselves.
These people often want "proof" that cables sound different from each other.
And if it can't be "proven" in double blind tests , then it is all imagination.
It seems to me that both these camps are putting their thrust in what they read
in technical publications or glossy hifi magazines. A lot of people of reads both.
Personally I read mostly technical papers.
Then , after we are finished reading we pick the "truth" that suits us best.
Jan, we have both of us stated our position in these matters.
I have said that I hear differences in cables in my own system.
I don't think the two of us will ever agree, except that we can agree that we
have a different opinion on these things. And I think we both agree that
fancy cables in shiny wrapping with silly prices are........ silly.
But IMHO to state that all cables sound the same is naive in the extreme. 😉
phn, why do you need "proof" ? You say that you trust yourself ,
and if you do then everything is fine in my book. But you still want "proof"????
Nobody can prove anything about cables to you except yourself.
That we agree on 😉
cheers 😉
It seems to me there are two main camps when it comes to cables:
On the one hand the people who read the cable-tests in glossy hifi-mags.
They read the magazines religiosly, and spend ridicilous amounts of money on fancy cables with shiny wrapping. As we all know these cables are all the best in the world,
and all the cablemakers all have their own fantastic theories explaining why their cables are the best there is.
On the other hand we have people who say that all cables sound the same,
and that anyone who think they can here differences i cables are fooling themselves.
These people often want "proof" that cables sound different from each other.
And if it can't be "proven" in double blind tests , then it is all imagination.
It seems to me that both these camps are putting their thrust in what they read
in technical publications or glossy hifi magazines. A lot of people of reads both.
Personally I read mostly technical papers.
Then , after we are finished reading we pick the "truth" that suits us best.
janneman said:
Jan, we have both of us stated our position in these matters.
I have said that I hear differences in cables in my own system.
I don't think the two of us will ever agree, except that we can agree that we
have a different opinion on these things. And I think we both agree that
fancy cables in shiny wrapping with silly prices are........ silly.
But IMHO to state that all cables sound the same is naive in the extreme. 😉
phn said:
phn, why do you need "proof" ? You say that you trust yourself ,
and if you do then everything is fine in my book. But you still want "proof"????
Nobody can prove anything about cables to you except yourself.
phn said:
That we agree on 😉
cheers 😉
Worst. Wit. Attempt. Ever.
Not to mention that an appropriate cable, a common 75 Ohm coaxial cable usually used for cable TV transmission, costs less than a thousandth of the price you qoted above. Price has nothing to do with quality in audio, just with marketing.
Your opinion is anything but humble.
That signal has to be converted to analog, and this is where the impact of jitter is. The DAC operation has to be synchronized to the signal. Timing information is also part of the signal that is used even if you are reclocking, because you have to correlate the DAC clock to the signal, and the PLL used to recover the frequency is an analog system. The only way to fully get rid of jitter is to have everything perfectly synchronized to the same clock.
Bull. Coaxial cable is pennies per foot. You clearly cannot distinguish between the marketing scams of hi-fi businesses and well known techincal issues. So much for an analytical and unbiased mind, which I thought was needed to work at a research lab.
Since you are clearly too lazy to do your own research, here's a good article on jitter from the perspective of professional audio:
http://www.digido.com/portal/pmodule_id=11/pmdmode=fullscreen/pageadder_page_id=28/
The probability may be big or small, but it's infinitely larger than it is for any other species here.Prune said:
Not at all. The available energy becomes smaller and smaller, but never reaches zero. Life as we know it may become impossible pretty quickly on that scale, but there are many possible forms of life that could exist, going slower and slower as the energy available reduces.Prune said:
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "better off". I don't think that surviving that long could be considered anything other than success as far as life is concerned, but even that need not be the end given that there is the possibility that our universe is not the only one available to us. If it were to turn out that there are others and it were also possible to move between them, then all limits are removed.Prune said:
Of course we might all be wiped out tomorrow, it's just interesting to speculate from a philosophical point of view.
Uh... Maybe I don't understand something here...
If the cable gets the information there, that isn't enough? It has to be improved upon somehow? Then it's going to flow from the DAC, via mm-thin (if that...) connections to the ultimate "state of the art" connection to the pre-amp, where it _again_ goes back to mm-thin connections, gets switched all over heck and back, processed, inspected, detected, neglected, and possibly injected, then back into that mm-thin connection, then to another fancy "state of the art" interconnect to the amp, where... well, things ain't gettin' any prettier...
I've always assumed that everything that I'm actually hearing is downstream from the DAC... You mean that if I don't feed the DAC the ones and zeros in the correct fashion, it'll hate me forever? Not cook breakfast?
Oh, and I agree... I'm far from humble. I will admit that my field isn't electronic or a/v... However, as I'm a born skeptic, which seems to meld quite well with application of the scientific method... I have a hard time rationalizing how what is essentially conductive wire can carry all the things which the "stereophile" writers rave of... Especially if one were to blindfold 'em, duct tape 'em, not tell 'em who the advertisers are, and then query 'em... But then again, I'm obstinate.
And I also agree - price has nothing to do with quality in audio - unless you're financing your habit from selling esoteric copper and plating to others. I like my "inexpensive" (compared to the $80K things I listened to last week...) maggies... Yeah, the $80K speaks sounded nice, but not _that_ nice...
Besides, how would all these cables work, if everything has to be perfectly syncronized? There's no such thing as a faster-than-light interconnect.
If the cable gets the information there, that isn't enough? It has to be improved upon somehow? Then it's going to flow from the DAC, via mm-thin (if that...) connections to the ultimate "state of the art" connection to the pre-amp, where it _again_ goes back to mm-thin connections, gets switched all over heck and back, processed, inspected, detected, neglected, and possibly injected, then back into that mm-thin connection, then to another fancy "state of the art" interconnect to the amp, where... well, things ain't gettin' any prettier...
I've always assumed that everything that I'm actually hearing is downstream from the DAC... You mean that if I don't feed the DAC the ones and zeros in the correct fashion, it'll hate me forever? Not cook breakfast?
Oh, and I agree... I'm far from humble. I will admit that my field isn't electronic or a/v... However, as I'm a born skeptic, which seems to meld quite well with application of the scientific method... I have a hard time rationalizing how what is essentially conductive wire can carry all the things which the "stereophile" writers rave of... Especially if one were to blindfold 'em, duct tape 'em, not tell 'em who the advertisers are, and then query 'em... But then again, I'm obstinate.
And I also agree - price has nothing to do with quality in audio - unless you're financing your habit from selling esoteric copper and plating to others. I like my "inexpensive" (compared to the $80K things I listened to last week...) maggies... Yeah, the $80K speaks sounded nice, but not _that_ nice...
Besides, how would all these cables work, if everything has to be perfectly syncronized? There's no such thing as a faster-than-light interconnect.
Please read the link I've posted. I think it will clarify the issue. If you still have questions, search the Digital forum here, where a former VP Engineering from Crystal (or is it Cirrus -- I confuse the names) I believe had a number of informative posts regarding the issue.
So am I. How many people you know are proud owners of a hardcopy of Todd Carroll's The Skeptic's Dictionary, even though it's available online for free? I'm a fan of Shermer and Randy, and registered with the Brights; I share Weinberg's view of religion.
Yes, it is mostly made up or marketing. But on the other side you have people who rely exclusively on measurements. Both sides are dead wrong. The only definitive test is a properly conducted double blind test, and this is a very expensive undertaking, with little incentive for anyone but the curious to perform.
Exactly. Everything cannot be perfectly synchronized. We live in a world that is analog yet due to QM not infinitely differentiable. That doesn't mean you can't try to minimize the effects.
Hi,
No idea what the speed of light has to do with it but what was being explained to you was the influence of jitter on the endresult of what you'll be hearing.
The interconnect you're using will still have an influence on that especially if is doesn't adhere to the standards.
You'll need it to works as a transmission line or you'll be having reflections.
That should be enough and no:
It does not have to be improved somehow.
Which was not what anyone was stating anyway....
Cheers,😉
No idea what the speed of light has to do with it but what was being explained to you was the influence of jitter on the endresult of what you'll be hearing.
The interconnect you're using will still have an influence on that especially if is doesn't adhere to the standards.
You'll need it to works as a transmission line or you'll be having reflections.
That should be enough and no:
It does not have to be improved somehow.
Which was not what anyone was stating anyway....
Cheers,😉
Ahh... But it's not the curious who should perform it - It's the people who have the most to lose if it is proven wrong...
Ergo, it'll (a) never happen, and (b) be scoffed at should it happen, because it'll be done by someone without the "audio writer cachet." Remember that "newsperson," Cokie Roberts, I think, a couple of years ago who was incredibly offended by the internet, because it allowed news to spread without filtration by the media?
The magazines, etc., have too much to lose, should it actually be proven that the emperor is buck nekkid.
And it can't be that expensive.
Get a dozen or so folks (enough that you've got some standard deviation room...), some with the highly vaunted "golden ears," and some ordinary joes, none of 'em with a stake in any of it, blindfold 'em, and see what's what. Feed 'em the product, a control, and a placebo or three... Get everyone to agree on the room setup, speakers, preamp, amps, etc., beforehand (and then we'll hear "ohmigawd - you _know_ that XYZ wire just isn't meant for that combination - but it's great for everything else..."), and go to town.
What'll it cost? Rent a nice room, get the mfgrs to loan their wares, and buy enough booze to keep the guinea pigs happy? Heck- I bet I could throw that shindig for less than the cost of a pair of esoteric speaker wires. If...
If the manufacturers had the... well... the intestinal fortitude to put their reputations where their hype is.
If the companies flogging the megadollar interconnects and speaker wire had that much confidence in their products, they'd have already done this. Repeatedly.
Most manufacturers know they are scamming. But the other side, exemplified by the likes of D. Self, is also mistaken. Proper blind testing is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. But this has already been discussed to exhaustion. Search the Audioasylum forums for Jon Risch's detailed posts on the subject. The AES journal is a good peer reviewed source of the limited research that has been done on the issue.
Hi,
That could well be true but untill that happens.....
First of all, 99% of all those expensive cables out there are just "variations on a theme" as far as geometry goes.
99% of those use materials you can actually buy on a per meter basis from online shops on the internet, be that PTFE insulated OFC copper, high purity silver, solid core, multi-strand, round wires or foils in the exact same gauges they use.
If cryoed, you can have your own self-made cables cryoed just the same.
The solder they use is also available as are the connectors....
You can even find very nice heatshrinks, protective sleeving and RFI screening to any imaginable percentage if you must use that.
All of the above only costing a fraction of what a cable manufacturer is charging retail plus some elbow grease.....
So what's stopping YOU?
Cheers, 😉
That could well be true but untill that happens.....
First of all, 99% of all those expensive cables out there are just "variations on a theme" as far as geometry goes.
99% of those use materials you can actually buy on a per meter basis from online shops on the internet, be that PTFE insulated OFC copper, high purity silver, solid core, multi-strand, round wires or foils in the exact same gauges they use.
If cryoed, you can have your own self-made cables cryoed just the same.
The solder they use is also available as are the connectors....
You can even find very nice heatshrinks, protective sleeving and RFI screening to any imaginable percentage if you must use that.
All of the above only costing a fraction of what a cable manufacturer is charging retail plus some elbow grease.....
So what's stopping YOU?
Cheers, 😉
You know the old saying, "Seeing is believing"? First off, it's not really that old at all. I believe it comes from the bible. And it only exists in the western world. "Touching/feeling," if I'm correct, is used in most of the world. It used to be so here as well. But my point is, seeing is NOT believing. Seeing is an illusion. We just accept this illusion as reality.
I'm not an Aristotlean and least of all a positivist. That is I don't think the definition of a chair is an object you sit on. I don't think you have to be able to sit on a chair. I don't believe in functionalism. And I know most people don't. People have always paid good money for stuff that handicaps and obstructs them in their life, such as high heel shoes, vinyl records and Microsoft Windows. I believe in dysfunctional furniture. And I don't think everything can be measured. I.e. I'm a naivist. Or to put it in other words, it's not a coincidence that I'm not an engineer. I have a humanist background. I'm an intellectual. Intellectual means a person that rejects the idea of a higher authority and seeks truthfulness and righteousness. Nothing more, nothing less.
I wouldn't use 12 AWG power cords, cryod at that, if I didn't believe in cables. But we can all appreciate the benefits of gauge, and the effect of cryo has been known for at least a century. It's only the backward "high end" audio industry that's slow; an industry more interested in "exotic" stuff and gimmicks than science and the tried and proven. But lets use the backward "high end" audio industry as example. How many of those exotic materials used in the last quarter century have lasted more than a few years? Yes, some retarded technologies, like anti-skating, have survived. And most CD player manufacturers use oversampling. The latter is no doubt driven by this "hi-rez" buzz. I cannot explain why those things exist any more than why Socrates isn't considered the clown he was. I don't have all the answers. If I did you would have to address me God.
I don't need proof. I already have proof--the test. If you read my posts, that's my whole point. It's you that contest it. But you have nothing to counter it with other than superstitious beliefs. You tell me to ignore science in favor of witchcraft. How can I as an intellectual do that?
I'm not an Aristotlean and least of all a positivist. That is I don't think the definition of a chair is an object you sit on. I don't think you have to be able to sit on a chair. I don't believe in functionalism. And I know most people don't. People have always paid good money for stuff that handicaps and obstructs them in their life, such as high heel shoes, vinyl records and Microsoft Windows. I believe in dysfunctional furniture. And I don't think everything can be measured. I.e. I'm a naivist. Or to put it in other words, it's not a coincidence that I'm not an engineer. I have a humanist background. I'm an intellectual. Intellectual means a person that rejects the idea of a higher authority and seeks truthfulness and righteousness. Nothing more, nothing less.
I wouldn't use 12 AWG power cords, cryod at that, if I didn't believe in cables. But we can all appreciate the benefits of gauge, and the effect of cryo has been known for at least a century. It's only the backward "high end" audio industry that's slow; an industry more interested in "exotic" stuff and gimmicks than science and the tried and proven. But lets use the backward "high end" audio industry as example. How many of those exotic materials used in the last quarter century have lasted more than a few years? Yes, some retarded technologies, like anti-skating, have survived. And most CD player manufacturers use oversampling. The latter is no doubt driven by this "hi-rez" buzz. I cannot explain why those things exist any more than why Socrates isn't considered the clown he was. I don't have all the answers. If I did you would have to address me God.
I don't need proof. I already have proof--the test. If you read my posts, that's my whole point. It's you that contest it. But you have nothing to counter it with other than superstitious beliefs. You tell me to ignore science in favor of witchcraft. How can I as an intellectual do that?
Well, giving that it came out of that text, what else could it be?
You are very loose and misleading with your description of positivism. I am a positivist (with regards to philosophy of science, and more specifically, a reductionist in the sense that Stephen Hawking is). Yet I do not define a chair the way you do, though I know that objects and categories are in the mind and not in the world. 'Chair' is a word denoting a mental concept physically mapping to some neural pattern in the brain, whose relationship to the rest of mental concepts is generally sufficiently consistent across society to allow reasonable comminication.
You are seeking something that does not exist outside your psyche. The second one is so subjective that it varies widely across the population and cannot be justified starting from a foundation of objective 'facts' or scientific knowledge (even though the appearance of the concept in various cultures can be explained by human social evolution, this does not go any distance towards justifying it).
I fail to see what's wrong with oversampling if well implemented.
Eisenhower said it best: "An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows." A perfect description of your post. 😛
Campers, I shoot benchrest. I understand cryo.
I still have a hard time understanding the "widdletinytraces/cardas/megadollarinterconnect/cardas/widdletinytraces/allsortasacrap/widdletinytraces/cardsas/hundredzadollazafootspeakawire/yourgawdawfulconez" bit...
But I understand cryo...
I still have a hard time understanding the "widdletinytraces/cardas/megadollarinterconnect/cardas/widdletinytraces/allsortasacrap/widdletinytraces/cardsas/hundredzadollazafootspeakawire/yourgawdawfulconez" bit...
But I understand cryo...
When everything is nicely stress relieved, all the bullets go into the same hole.
The barrels are also a lot easier to clean.
The barrels are also a lot easier to clean.
Ectually, from what my friend (who owns one of the big cryo outfits) says, the stuff essentially realigns itself, and not just on the surface. Pretty cool - sounds like snake oil, wouldn't believe it, but after a fair amount of testing, by a lot of very analytical folks , it has borne out. I guess us gun nuts have more fundage...
Hi,
I suppose you then understand skindepth/current/crystal to crystal boundary metalurgy thing too?
Not to mention the nasty interconnect/connector/contact resistance connundrum paradoxical enigmatic parasitic capacitance into unknown input impedance miller effect capacitance mutliplier frequency mess blender?
Thought so, too easy....😉
P.S. Life's sooo easy when you're not into audio...........
I suppose you then understand skindepth/current/crystal to crystal boundary metalurgy thing too?
Not to mention the nasty interconnect/connector/contact resistance connundrum paradoxical enigmatic parasitic capacitance into unknown input impedance miller effect capacitance mutliplier frequency mess blender?
Thought so, too easy....😉
P.S. Life's sooo easy when you're not into audio...........
And if you want me to get a lot more into it, I can show you all her (yup - it's a "her") techie stuff. Yeah, I read it...
And I actually grokked most of it... Pretty kewl...
And I promptly decided that I didn't need to worry about it. So...
If I need to actually reference it, I can get in touch with it.
Thaguvewwybuch.
And I actually grokked most of it... Pretty kewl...
And I promptly decided that I didn't need to worry about it. So...
If I need to actually reference it, I can get in touch with it.
Thaguvewwybuch.
Well, you know, we're getting so much bloody **** thrown into the signal, just from the boundary between the interconnect and the connector, why don't we just bleepin' well SOLDER the dang things?
Of course, then we'll blame the solder...
And someone will sell $300 2" lengths of solder...
And...
ARGH! ARGH! ARGH!
Of course, then we'll blame the solder...
And someone will sell $300 2" lengths of solder...
And...
ARGH! ARGH! ARGH!
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