It's official: all cables sound the same!

[Dave S]

Since we are onto mains cables as well....

Here is an interesting experiment:

Instead of plugging all your hifi equipment into one physically close group of wall sockets run an extension cable to one of the items e.g your pre-amp and plug the other end of the extension in in another room.

I would be interested to see if you get the same (sonic) result as I did. (Of course different countries have somewhat different mains electricity schemes).

On second thoughts, I don't trust you lot. I want hi-fi+ to do this test😀

 

[audio-kraut]

If a reviewer is found to be suspect, or dare I even say has there judgment coloured by financial incentives how can we look on any further information imparted by that individual without suspicion.

That is one of the many problem if subjective reviews are allowed to be published without corroborating measurements. I think most of us are agreed that measurements alone cannot - restricted by the limited amounts of parametres (see the IM test i.e.) - fully determine the quality of audio reproduction. But they at least are the skeleton that gives the following subjective "flesh" something to hold on to.

And then it has to be explained in detail why in some cases the measurents are so much better than the sound perceived or vice versa.

If instead of one reviewer a group would do test - as is done in UHF magazine for instance - or even a blind test - than those subjective listening tests would regain much more credibility.

That is one of the reasons why before buying I read intensively through those consumer generated reports, as I have found them - not beholden to anybody but their own experience with the equipment in question - rather more reliable than the single person single piece equipment review by one lonely writer.

 

[slowmotion]

Hi all

I find the whole concept of "hi end" audio cables.......strange....... and interesting.
Just to state my own position, to me all ( most ) cables sound different from each other.
Don't know why, they just do. Might be many reasons for that.

On the other hand when I need a cable I just use whatever is at hand,
since other things I change in my system matters more, to me.
All my amps and speakers are diy, and I hardwire all cables.
No connectors or binding posts allowed .

And I should also mention that I haven't read a hifi mag in over 10 years.
Now, there are many reasons I stopped reading the glossy magasines,
but "tests" like that is certainly one of them.

There are few things in audio that will polarise people like audio cables.
Most people are either for or against, it's "them" or "us".
Like war, or maybe religion.

Since I am sort of in the middle it's easier for me to stand back and just observe
the whole mess / confusion from a distance, but I still find it ...... strange.......

Is it better to believe what's written in glossy hifi mags than to thrust oneself?

Originally posted by Sheldon


This wouldn't be a rhetorical question, would it?

Cheers

 

[slowmotion]

Re: Since we are onto mains cables as well....

Here is an interesting experiment:

Instead of plugging all your hifi equipment into one physically close group of wall sockets run an extension cable to one of the items e.g your pre-amp and plug the other end of the extension in in another room.

I do that with my record player. 😀

cheers 😉

 

[jan.didden]

Hah! That's childs play!
My CD player is in my neighbours' house. That's OK, because his CD player is in my house. So we listen to each others music. Works like a charm

Jan Didden

 

[audio-kraut]

There is another aspect of this discussion: people claim to hear differences and when ask to explain what the theoretical basis their claim is based on - the big silence or the question of belief.

I have come to experience in the audio community reactions towards rational questions that are more akin to reactions by fundamentalist believers doubting their religious base than people having grown up in an environment that is sceptical of ANY unsubstatiated, unproven statement.

This willingness to doubt and to cast doubters into the role of the "unbeliever" and "doodoo disturbers" should be foreign to a hobby whose persuit is after all based on measurable physical and not metaphysical fog.
To ask for a theoretical basis for any claim made is fundamental to a rational approach to any phenomena, and if it cannot be done, one has every right to first doubt those claims and then cast them into the rubbish bin.


Theoretical approach means after all that past the first claims or observations some serious investigation has taken place and thence a theory has been developed to explain those phenomena and also to predict certain outcomes of events when the theoretical conditions are met - i.e. because I know the conditions under which an object was accelerated I know its trajectory and where it will land.
But for some reason - and I think it is the fear to find that ones beliefs were wrong after all - there is a reluctance in this community to any measured proof that sometimes I think those believers should have their own forum called: the church of the golden ear - "hear and do not doubt!"

 

[analog_sa]

Just to state my own position, to me all ( most ) cables sound different from each other.

Thanks for the input. This thread was beginning to read like another Deaf Pride Parade 🙂

All my amps and speakers are diy, and I hardwire all cables.

This may well yield more than expensive cables. In my uncompromising youth i had a system which was hard wired from cartridge pins to speaker terminals. And to the wall. Every piece of wire was cheap solid core as in those dark ages the market for expensive wire did not exist. In some respects it played better than anything i've had since.

 

[jan.didden]

[snip] In my uncompromising youth i had a system which was hard wired from cartridge pins to speaker terminals. And to the wall. Every piece of wire was cheap solid core as in those dark ages the market for expensive wire did not exist. In some respects it played better than anything i've had since.

... by which you are saying that cables don't really make the difference. Thanks for the support.😉

Jan Didden

 

[audio-kraut]

as in those dark ages

I think the dark ages arrive with persons like you abandoning reason for metaphysik. See the result in the last US election and the movement to proclaim "creationism" and "intelligent design" equal with darwins theory.

 

[jan.didden]

[snip]To ask for a theoretical basis for any claim made is fundamental to a rational approach to any phenomena, and if it cannot be done, one has every right to first doubt those claims and then cast them into the rubbish bin.


Theoretical approach means after all that past the first claims or observations some serious investigation has taken place and thence a theory has been developed to explain those phenomena and also to predict certain outcomes of events when the theoretical conditions are met - i.e. because I know the conditions under which an object was accelerated I know its trajectory and where it will land.
But for some reason - and I think it is the fear to find that ones beliefs were wrong after all - there is a reluctance in this community to any measured proof that sometimes I think those believers should have their own forum called: the church of the golden ear - "hear and do not doubt!"

There is much fundamental truth in what you say. What you describe is the 'scientific method', that particular way of speculation, then testing, then making sure it is repeatable etc until you have a theory that fits current and future observable phenomena. It is that, that gave way to the many technological accomplishments of our society, including audio.

Yet, as you say, there is some inborn resistance in most if not all people against a reasoning (and its outcome) that might lead to the need to change their beliefs. Only when you are aware of what you are doing and make an effort you can conciously overcome that natural bias, and then still only to a certain extend.

There is an excellent book on this aspect of the human nature by Lewis Volpert titled: "The unnatural nature of Science". Subtitle: "Why Science doesn't make (common) sense". Highly recommended for anyone wanting to understand the role of science in our culture.

Jan Didden

 

[jan.didden]

A quote from Richard Feynman:

"In general we look for a new law by the following process. First we guess it. Then we compute the consequences of the guess to see what would be implied if this law that we guessed is right.... If it disagrees with experiment it is wrong. That simple statement is the key to science...
It does not make any difference how smart you are, who made the guess, or what his name is - if it disagree with experiment it is wrong.
It is true that one has to check a little to make sure it is wrong "

Jan Didden
[italics mine]

 

[audio-kraut]

Jannemann - As a former labtech and an engineer (though in quite a different filed from audio end electronics) I grew up in an environment of scientific speculation, and I have - beeing a lapsed catholic - found this to be the only rational, reasonable and intellectually worthwhile way to try to investigate and explain natural phenomena.

That is why I have very little patience with people who make claims without proof or even an attempt to justify those based on some kind of theoretical framework. This smacks of religion which should not have a place in a forum , and - sorry if I insult anybody - for me religion is the source of ALL evil.

That is also why I find your opening statement quite intrigueing and followed this threat - some fresh rational air within the voodoo of high end.

 

[carlosfm]

Re: The point of all this is...

A magazine on any subject should inform and help the reader decide what products are value for money.

Right, but read them with a dose of salt.
Read them as entertainment, preferably in the bathroom.

Two months ago the guy that makes the measurements on Hi-Fi World (supposed to be an "EE") said this astonishing thing:

"Top of the range Denon CD/DVD players have no jitter".

This is not information, this in in fact ignorance and worse, they spread the stupidity all around.

 

[slowmotion]

Hi all

There is another aspect of this discussion: people claim to hear differences and when ask to explain what the theoretical basis their claim is based on - the big silence or the question of belief.

There is also the possibility that they just don't know.
I claim to hear differences between cables, too,
but I certainly don't know why.
I could throw out theories of why they might sound different from each other,
but that would be just speculation, so I think it's better from my side to just
make a note of the "fact" that cables tend to sound different from each other
to my ears, and leave it at that, for now.
If you want to prove that all cables sound the same you are certainly free to do so,
I am not going to argue against it , since I use what I want to anyway 😉

cheers 😉

 

[jan.didden]

[snip]I could throw out theories of why they might sound different from each other,
but that would be just speculation, so I think it's better from my side to just make a note of the "fact" that cables tend to sound different from each other to my ears, and leave it at that, for now. [snip]

Yes, you are right of course.
Just don't tell me to buy cable xyz because it is the best invention since sliced bread.

Jan Didden

 

[audio-kraut]

I could throw out theories

Based on theories - not personal hypothesis - that so far explain cable behaviour. I.e. transmission line behaviour , impedance, capacitance, resistance....

.

I am not going to argue against it , since I use what I want to anyway

No, that clearly is your taste and nobody argues with that. What I argue against is that certain statements are made to be somehow proof that certain phenomena exist - when they are only in the mind of the observer (lets call it "ghosts")

And worst of all - that unfounded statements are made by producers of items to induce the gullible to fork out megabucks for products based on those claims. The only rational behind those statements the desire to maximize profit but not the listening experience.

 

[jackinnj]

... by which you are saying that cables don't really make the difference. Thanks for the support.😉

Jan Didden

...avoid all cables ... take a straight pin and a piece of paper. fold the paper into a cone... insert the straight pin into the narrow end of the cone...with your hand, place the sharp end of the pin on the revolving long-playing disc -- problem solved, quod erat demonstratum.

 

[jan.didden]

... better yet, go to a concert. Unplugged. Enjoy. Only 19.95...

Jan Didden

 

[PMA]

Cables itself maybe do sound the same, but not the audio chains of which the cables are the part ... 😉

 

[audio-kraut]

but not the audio chains of which the cables are the part

And this statement is supported by measurement and theorie in some cases. See as an example goertz flat cable behaviour in conjunction with certain amps.