I have been baffled by what 'wattage size' amp to get for my next purchase.. In this world of amps boasting 100s of watts I was confused and often worried about 'is it big enough' syndrome..
Let me explain..
I often listen on moderate to lowish volume and use Proac Studio 140mk2 (91db, 8ohm). Amps are Audiolab 8000s (65w @ 8ohm) and 8000p (85w @ 8ohm). I NEVER listen past 9oclock position on my amp.. Mostly it's lower than that...
Having lurked through these forums for almost a year, I had been considering various vintage options, gain clones, t-amps etc.. the thing at the back of head said 'nah, it won't have enough power..' , after all what hifi often talk about clout etc etc that comes from a beefy amp..
So, I finally measured the SPL to roughly estimate how much wattage I use. Using an app on my Android I measured the db levels at 1meter, I set the amp on my normal listening volume. The app measured at 65db normal and 80db max..
Given my speakers are 91db @ 1 meter @ 1w... And the meter readings are around 80ish Db or less for my normal listening volume. Does that mean I am using 1W MAX of my total amp power??? Is this right?
Let me explain..
I often listen on moderate to lowish volume and use Proac Studio 140mk2 (91db, 8ohm). Amps are Audiolab 8000s (65w @ 8ohm) and 8000p (85w @ 8ohm). I NEVER listen past 9oclock position on my amp.. Mostly it's lower than that...
Having lurked through these forums for almost a year, I had been considering various vintage options, gain clones, t-amps etc.. the thing at the back of head said 'nah, it won't have enough power..' , after all what hifi often talk about clout etc etc that comes from a beefy amp..
So, I finally measured the SPL to roughly estimate how much wattage I use. Using an app on my Android I measured the db levels at 1meter, I set the amp on my normal listening volume. The app measured at 65db normal and 80db max..
Given my speakers are 91db @ 1 meter @ 1w... And the meter readings are around 80ish Db or less for my normal listening volume. Does that mean I am using 1W MAX of my total amp power??? Is this right?
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My listening is done between .001W and .05W. I have no need for big power either, as I find this power is quite capable of satisfying my requirements. My all time record was about 5W peak per channel.
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You need also to consider dynamic range. Your amp may output 1 Watt continuously but peak volume might need more power to avoid clipping.
1W seems to be in the right ballpark. For many years radio sets had maximum output somewhere in the range from 500mW to 5W, but were rarely used at maximum. Even allowing for radio speakers being more efficient than hi-fi this still means that typical domestic listening will be at or below 1W. More power is needed for occasional transients.
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It's also my observation that I rarely need much power for music. Well, now you are ready to move up to a tube amplifier 😀
It depends on the music you listen to. Certainly, 1W is about right for a nice listening level but remember that +10dB only sounds about 2x as loud though it's 10x as much power. Add in some music with a heavy bassline (which can use a lot of energy before it becomes "loud" like the higher registers do), crank it up a bit more and you can easily go from 1W to 100W.
I think you should use a pure tone like 1 kHz sine wave and measure 2.83v at the output of your power amp with a meter. That's about 1 watt output. That's what I remember from all those years of reading Audio magazine tests. 🙂 See where your preamp knob is set at that point.
I will try that tomorrow. The reason I didnt was to see how many watts my fav song actual uses. 🙂
I mostly tend to listen to a bit of a mixture, female vocal stuff, A bit of Nitin Sawhney, Anushka, Phaeleh, Massive attack, Jazz etc.. but never on a high volume 🙂
When I lived in a flat, I always 'dreamed' of being in a bigger place and owning Proac Studio 140 or Proac D18 and playing the system LOUD. Now I have the aforementioned AND 14month twins. So, listening to music is a rare and relaxing luxury, so I tend to listen more 'intimately' at a lower volume. I also tend to have a pounding headache from babies crying at 110db.. Last thing I want to do is play the music loud, wake up the kids AND have even a bigger headache.. 🙂
So, dare I ask, unless you are listening to some mega bass at really high volumes and own some sort of sound proof bunker - are the extra WATTS a bit of "just incase" and a waste of money?
I hear tubes and proac go really well. I have been looking at some DIY kits (mostly GainClone 3886 dual mono - not Tube I know). But I have often wondered about what tubes would sound like.. Any recommendations?
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Some subwoofers are incredibly inefficient - the small sealed boxes that claim to hit 20Hz will actually hit 20Hz, at <70dB@1w. I throw a kilowatt at mine. The amp has clipped, but not often - I was being silly at the time. I'd expect it goes up to ~100w on peaks, though.
Thankfully I dont need a Sub with the Proac Studio 140mk2. At the best of times I find that they are just too bassy with their rating of 25hz to 30Khz.
But I do take your point however regarding the bass needing more power 🙂 What amp do you use?
I was in the small-but-quality camp until I put in a BIG quality amp. Convert. I run a pair of Parasound HCA1200's in my living room. One mains, one subs. When I finish my electronic crossover, I will add an HCA75 for the tweeters.
For your speakers, I would try to keep it in the 25 to 50W range with the stipulation it had better be a good amp with plenty of main bank cap. That is in a range where class A is doable. I tried a 12W tube amp on some very efficient speakers as the numbers said no problem. The only good thing was that tubes clip smoother. Not a good trade-off for all their distortion and lack of power.
So, for your very efficient speakers, where I want 250W, 50 is probably about right for you. I run a 60W modified Hafler in my office, a 35W Creek in the bed room, a 75W AVR in the guest room, and 40W POS in the workshop. All but the shop have subs, and none is more efficient than 86dB. My sub amps are all around 200 to 300W, 4 Ohms.
Oh yea, if a sub needs 1000W, it is a very poorly designed sub. Some do, and they are. If your Proac's seem too bassy, look into bass traps. Not expensive boutique stuff, real ones: DIY. Like a stack of insulation rolls floor to ceiling in a corner. You may have some peaks that could be eq'd out. Most rooms have at least one in the 55 range.
For your speakers, I would try to keep it in the 25 to 50W range with the stipulation it had better be a good amp with plenty of main bank cap. That is in a range where class A is doable. I tried a 12W tube amp on some very efficient speakers as the numbers said no problem. The only good thing was that tubes clip smoother. Not a good trade-off for all their distortion and lack of power.
So, for your very efficient speakers, where I want 250W, 50 is probably about right for you. I run a 60W modified Hafler in my office, a 35W Creek in the bed room, a 75W AVR in the guest room, and 40W POS in the workshop. All but the shop have subs, and none is more efficient than 86dB. My sub amps are all around 200 to 300W, 4 Ohms.
Oh yea, if a sub needs 1000W, it is a very poorly designed sub. Some do, and they are. If your Proac's seem too bassy, look into bass traps. Not expensive boutique stuff, real ones: DIY. Like a stack of insulation rolls floor to ceiling in a corner. You may have some peaks that could be eq'd out. Most rooms have at least one in the 55 range.
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If you want to buy one you might start by looking at chinese made amps - prices are hard to argue with in many cases. I don't have experience with them myself to offer a recommendation but there appear to be many choices out there and much you can read about them on the internet.
If you want to DIY a tube amplifier then you have many choices there too and it would be better if you asked over on the tubes forum for some input. My first DIY tube amplifier is here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/167872-my-cellini-triode-amp.html
Look here too: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubelab/
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Based on power requirements discussed perhaps a tube lab simple SE might be a good introduction to tubes and you could build it yourself.
I did a similar experiment a while ago. As has already been said above, I was not surprised to discover that at even moderate listening levels my amp was putting out only 5.8W.
The extra 95W of power is kept back for dynamics. If the headroom of your amplifier is poor then the music will just lack life when pushed slightly.
The Arcams are good because they will give you +3dB at normal listening level and do have a bit in reserve. Push them a bit higher and they start to show their limitations. Having said that, as the volume gets louder the human ear is less likely to hear the distortion as you go into harder Class B operation.
The extra 95W of power is kept back for dynamics. If the headroom of your amplifier is poor then the music will just lack life when pushed slightly.
The Arcams are good because they will give you +3dB at normal listening level and do have a bit in reserve. Push them a bit higher and they start to show their limitations. Having said that, as the volume gets louder the human ear is less likely to hear the distortion as you go into harder Class B operation.
I have very similar experience as I wanted to see how much power my little D-class amplifier draws. So I measured 1.2W without any signal (and yes, at this point I measured a couple of more things as well, like the DVD-player, 18W when running, to make sure that the meter does work) and 1.8W when playing background music. So output power would be ((1.8W - 1.2W) / 2 ) * 0.9 = 0.27W per channel as the D-class chip has about 90% efficiency.
So in the same ballpark as well.
So in the same ballpark as well.
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