15" and how loud is loud enough
I'm currently working on two towers with 4 15" / tower in a "H" baffle. THey are not slow. They are there for producing low notes in my living room. And yes you can hear 20 hz in a living room you just need to be at a spot where there is no cancelation.
For my room it's about 6 feet from the back wall right where my listening position is😀
Mark
I'm currently working on two towers with 4 15" / tower in a "H" baffle. THey are not slow. They are there for producing low notes in my living room. And yes you can hear 20 hz in a living room you just need to be at a spot where there is no cancelation.
For my room it's about 6 feet from the back wall right where my listening position is😀
Mark
Konnichiwa,
Absolutely. A Large Driver needs a large Box, implying a large overall size Speaker and they cost a lot of money for both driver and box, if you wnat to do it right.
BTW, most "Top of the range" and "State of the Art" Speakers employ large to very large woofers, be they the large Wilsons, JM Labs, Magnat, JBL and virtually all farfield large Format professional Monitors, be they Tannoy, MEG, JBL, PMC, ATC, Westlake et al.
That is patently untrue. A well designed 15" Pro?Studio driver tends to have a more favourable ratio between Moving mass and Motor Ssytem Strength (read Moving Mass divided by BL in technical terms), menaing they actually can react faster and more precise to any input signal than smaller drivers with a weaker motor system. Of course, a serious Magnet system (like the > 13lbs on the Tannoy Monitor 15 Red/Gold Studio Coax) costs serious money.
Is purely cosmetic.
A wide baflle does NOT cause diffraction, in fact, soffit mounted studio monitors are completely free from the problem. Larger baffles usually suffer from much less diffraction issues than narrow ones (partially because large drivers start having a narrowed dispersion at quite low frequencies) and result in a more accurate wavelaunch than narrow baffles.
The reverse is true, assuming you are implying low distortion and compression as being "correct sound". If you feel that the heavily distorted and compressed sound of small speakers is "correct" than of course you need to turn it up loauder or perhaps just buy a compressor and distortion pedal for each channel to get the same effects.
Any room (including cars and closed back headphone rooms - how is that for small) can support (not produce - rooms do not produce sound) a 1Hz sinewave and anything even lower and higher, as what we get is a air pressure change.
The 32' Organ register is around 16Hz.
I would say that about midranges, 8 - 10" is a good diameter....
Try a Tannoy 15" Coax Monitor. Way more awesome. Add a nice 21-24" Pro Audio Woofer as Sub....
Sayonara
jewilson said:
Absolutely. A Large Driver needs a large Box, implying a large overall size Speaker and they cost a lot of money for both driver and box, if you wnat to do it right.
BTW, most "Top of the range" and "State of the Art" Speakers employ large to very large woofers, be they the large Wilsons, JM Labs, Magnat, JBL and virtually all farfield large Format professional Monitors, be they Tannoy, MEG, JBL, PMC, ATC, Westlake et al.
jewilson said:
That is patently untrue. A well designed 15" Pro?Studio driver tends to have a more favourable ratio between Moving mass and Motor Ssytem Strength (read Moving Mass divided by BL in technical terms), menaing they actually can react faster and more precise to any input signal than smaller drivers with a weaker motor system. Of course, a serious Magnet system (like the > 13lbs on the Tannoy Monitor 15 Red/Gold Studio Coax) costs serious money.
jewilson said:
Is purely cosmetic.
jewilson said:
A wide baflle does NOT cause diffraction, in fact, soffit mounted studio monitors are completely free from the problem. Larger baffles usually suffer from much less diffraction issues than narrow ones (partially because large drivers start having a narrowed dispersion at quite low frequencies) and result in a more accurate wavelaunch than narrow baffles.
jewilson said:
The reverse is true, assuming you are implying low distortion and compression as being "correct sound". If you feel that the heavily distorted and compressed sound of small speakers is "correct" than of course you need to turn it up loauder or perhaps just buy a compressor and distortion pedal for each channel to get the same effects.
jewilson said:
Any room (including cars and closed back headphone rooms - how is that for small) can support (not produce - rooms do not produce sound) a 1Hz sinewave and anything even lower and higher, as what we get is a air pressure change.
jewilson said:
The 32' Organ register is around 16Hz.
jewilson said:
I would say that about midranges, 8 - 10" is a good diameter....
jewilson said:
Try a Tannoy 15" Coax Monitor. Way more awesome. Add a nice 21-24" Pro Audio Woofer as Sub....
Sayonara
With a system using PA speakers you can make more than 110dB with an amplifier from the ZEN family - 10W or so - Is this possible with 6" Home - Hifi speakers also? And distorion will be the lower the less of this dB you use - i doubt the thin 6" Hifi speaker will reproduce at the same quality level of dynamic range and distortion level. And it will need ten or 20 times more Watt.
15" for home use.
the middle one is unbeatable until now in reproducing anything below 100 Hz, including specialized bass-boom-boxes (subwoofers of any kind)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=289465#post289465
the middle one is unbeatable until now in reproducing anything below 100 Hz, including specialized bass-boom-boxes (subwoofers of any kind)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=289465#post289465
Hi all,
Hrmph!...
I was going to say something here, but thankfully I don't have to,
since Kuei Yang Wang already did, and much better than I am able to.
Read his post again, everyone 😉
In my own peronal ,very humble , very subjective opinion
the more driver area you have , the better your chances
of getting good music in your living room.
I'll shut up now 😉
cheers all
Hrmph!...
I was going to say something here, but thankfully I don't have to,
since Kuei Yang Wang already did, and much better than I am able to.
Read his post again, everyone 😉
In my own peronal ,very humble , very subjective opinion
the more driver area you have , the better your chances
of getting good music in your living room.
I'll shut up now 😉
cheers all
To 15" or not to 15" that is the question
Kuei Yang Wang
A 1 kHz wavelength = 1.33 feet or .344 meters.
A 30 Hz wavelength = 37 feet or 11.46 meters.
A 20 Hz wavelength = 56 feet or 17.2 meters.
Most larger speakers have more mass in the cone adding weight They also have a larger suspension assembly plus they are not as compliant as a smaller driver. This has nothing to do with the drivers ability to move air.
What I am saying is the "majority" of 15" drivers or not that hot for HIFI. There a some very good 15" drivers made, however they are big ticket items.
If you check the Theile Small paremater of a 15" driver you find it needs a big box to reproduce low frequency signal.
If you use one big box for your speaker you will need a wide front baffel. You options here or two make a two cabinets or build a cabinet with a curved fron baffel.
Speaker are simular to car motors, the samller they are the faster rev. and axcelerates faster to that RPM. When you have more mass to more and it's larger it axcelerates slower. That should not be confused with power and sond pressure.
Kuei Yang Wang, I recomend you purchase teh Martin Colloms High Performance Loudspeaker book. Also Vance Dickason has some good speaker design books.
Also, I am allowed my preferences as the rest of you are
Andre Baptiste,
Asked the question was a 15" driver a over kill for Music. For me that answer is yes. That is because of all the factors, money, cabinet, and room size, other wise no.
Bill,
Did all work out.
Kuei Yang Wang
A 1 kHz wavelength = 1.33 feet or .344 meters.
A 30 Hz wavelength = 37 feet or 11.46 meters.
A 20 Hz wavelength = 56 feet or 17.2 meters.
Most larger speakers have more mass in the cone adding weight They also have a larger suspension assembly plus they are not as compliant as a smaller driver. This has nothing to do with the drivers ability to move air.
What I am saying is the "majority" of 15" drivers or not that hot for HIFI. There a some very good 15" drivers made, however they are big ticket items.
If you check the Theile Small paremater of a 15" driver you find it needs a big box to reproduce low frequency signal.
If you use one big box for your speaker you will need a wide front baffel. You options here or two make a two cabinets or build a cabinet with a curved fron baffel.
Speaker are simular to car motors, the samller they are the faster rev. and axcelerates faster to that RPM. When you have more mass to more and it's larger it axcelerates slower. That should not be confused with power and sond pressure.
Kuei Yang Wang, I recomend you purchase teh Martin Colloms High Performance Loudspeaker book. Also Vance Dickason has some good speaker design books.
Also, I am allowed my preferences as the rest of you are
Andre Baptiste,
Asked the question was a 15" driver a over kill for Music. For me that answer is yes. That is because of all the factors, money, cabinet, and room size, other wise no.
Bill,
Did all work out.
I once used exactly the same comparision, BUT for wideband application of mid- and high frequency-drivers. This statement is not applicable for more narrow-band application like a real woofer is to be used for.
A 15 inch woofer is not suitable for producing >400Hz. (in fact 250 Hz is a better choice)
Mostly higher x-over freq is choosen because passif components become costly at lower freq, or active x-over thus bi-amping is needed (and of course 3 or 4 speakers instead of 2 or 3).
Stretching the abilities of a speaker in extending frequency-range is proppelled by economic reasons, not because of sound quality.
A 2" horn-driver will sound 'slow' (read "will lose sensivity")above 8 kHz because it's not made (too big) for that purpose...but most of them are specified up to 16kHz or more...
That's why most top-speakers are 4 or even 5 way.
Conclusion: using 15 inchers imply the use of a speaker more, or/and active x-over.(it's money that matters)
ok, It's my believe 1 way coil-permanent-magnet driven systems at this moment are not capable of giving a decent 20-20000 Hz response. They sound like enhanced transistor-radios, but not much better, for the reasons as mentioned above.
why would you need 15inch woofers?
plus my horn using a 10inch woofer gives 128dB down to 30Hz before room gain 😛
if I ever make it that is....
plus my horn using a 10inch woofer gives 128dB down to 30Hz before room gain 😛
if I ever make it that is....
before never building it i prefer to buy a 15" and listen to some music
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Re: To 15" or not to 15" that is the question
Konnichiwa,
And what has this got to do with price of tea in china? How long is your ear channel? For a tone to be audible (or in case of very low frequencies to be felt) what is required is a change in pressure. Such develops perfectly fine below the lowest eigentone of a room. This whole wavelength argument is chemically pure *********, sweet and simple.
Adding to the weight compared to what?
You obviously fail to draw up the whole relationship. A freind of mine once had a full racing trim Camaro, including around 5 Liter Engine and reall good breaks. It also was a fairly heavy car, compared to most compact european cars. So, it was a heavier car, hence by your logic it was a worse car, especially it would seem when it comes to acceleration, breaking and top speed. So clearly a 40 Horsepower Volxwagen Polo is faster and acelerates better, because it is lighter? You may wish to test that theory at any local traffic light....
Unless you relate the mass (Mms) to the ability to accelerate and decelerate this mass (B/L factor) you will draw inaccurate conclusions. The cone mass on it's own is completely irrelevant, just as the mass of a car is completely irrelevant on it's own, as measure to quantify ANY element of performance.
In what sense do they have a "larger suspension"? In respect to the relative diameter of the cone? In any absolute measure?
So what is then the aim of a driver? Not to move air?
I take it that you have tested the majority of 15" Drivers? In that case, maybe you would care to list those unsuited, to save the rest of us some time and effort?
I know very few good drivers being made, regardless of price that are NOT big ticket items. A crappy driver is a crappy driver, regardless if it is 6" or 15" Diameter.
If you check the T/S parameters of small drivers you find that they do not produce low frequencies at all above certain relatively low sound pressure levels, no matter how big you make the box.
And if you attempt to force them to produce any serious amount of low frequencies the extremely long excoursion required will cause sever distortion that affects the entire frequency range, whereas a larger driver moves a much smaller distance, remains more linear and BTW can do so much faster, as the stroke is proportionatly shorter.
Good thing too, as in order to support correct wavelaunch throughout at least the formant range of music and the human voice you need around 24" baffle width.
That is again clearly and illustrably chemcially pure horseshit. A small, light car with a large engine (which are very rarely found in such small and light cars) will potentially accelerate better than a heavier, larger car with a smaller engine, assuming you can actually get your tires to still hold the road and not just spinn free. But if the larger and heavier car has a superior horsepower to weight ratio it will actually accelerate better and will be better able (given the same road and tires) to put the added power into acceleration.
You seem to have purchased these books, assuming that the mere fact of possesion gives you understanding. You may wish to actually read these books and look carefully at the variables. It helps.
You can prefer whatever you like. You have however made clear technical statements (you did not write "I like the sound of smaller drivers better", you wrote "large drivers are bad because of these technical reasons") and made such I may add that are patenetly and demonstrably inaccurate.
So, are you saying really that a 15" Driver may actually in reality and in the absoilute sense of the word be the better solution, but because of the decor issues (size) and cost such a solution seems inappropriate for you?
That is fine. But your answers actually did not suggest that you felt that because of such issues you preferred to compromise on small speakers, you suggested (and this I believe was the original question) that smaller drivers where in an absolute sense the techically superior solution and large Drivers where only good "to impress your friends".
As someone who has lived with many speaker systems between 6" and 15" over the years and as someone who knows first hand many large format studio monitors I can assure that you get more than just "impressing your friends" from large format systems. I have currently (reluctantly) compromised on a comparably small Speaker System (8" Fullrange Drivers with soon to be added supertweeters and dual 12" Driver subwoofer), but I am also clearly and keenly aware of the sonic penalty payed. A system based around larger format drivers would better, notably so, in a number of areas and not just sound pressure.
My suggestion is simple, all else being equal go for the largest format drivers in each frequency range that you afford to buy, place in your living/listening room and operate correctly. Something like a 21" Sub Woofer, 15" upper bass and lower mid, Extended bandwidth 10" upper mid and 1" Compression Driver/Horn Tweeter combo (or a suitable 15" Coax Driver), with a 1.5" Ringradiator supertweeter above 15KHz comes pretty close. I'd keep the 21" Sub crossed over below around 30...50Hz and make it a sealed box and use the rest on a Dipole Enclosure (read open baffle), preferably cast corrian with an extension waveguide for the 15" and 10" (if used) matching the 21" diameter, to control dispersion.
You should try listen to that sort of system, if you actually would like to know what true detail, dynamics and speed sound like. I think the Pass Rushmore is a good commercial example for something based on a similar philosophy, as are the big (X-1 to WAMM) Wilsons, JM Labs (Grande Utopia) and so on.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
jewilson said:
And what has this got to do with price of tea in china? How long is your ear channel? For a tone to be audible (or in case of very low frequencies to be felt) what is required is a change in pressure. Such develops perfectly fine below the lowest eigentone of a room. This whole wavelength argument is chemically pure *********, sweet and simple.
jewilson said:
Adding to the weight compared to what?
You obviously fail to draw up the whole relationship. A freind of mine once had a full racing trim Camaro, including around 5 Liter Engine and reall good breaks. It also was a fairly heavy car, compared to most compact european cars. So, it was a heavier car, hence by your logic it was a worse car, especially it would seem when it comes to acceleration, breaking and top speed. So clearly a 40 Horsepower Volxwagen Polo is faster and acelerates better, because it is lighter? You may wish to test that theory at any local traffic light....
Unless you relate the mass (Mms) to the ability to accelerate and decelerate this mass (B/L factor) you will draw inaccurate conclusions. The cone mass on it's own is completely irrelevant, just as the mass of a car is completely irrelevant on it's own, as measure to quantify ANY element of performance.
jewilson said:
In what sense do they have a "larger suspension"? In respect to the relative diameter of the cone? In any absolute measure?
jewilson said:
So what is then the aim of a driver? Not to move air?
jewilson said:
I take it that you have tested the majority of 15" Drivers? In that case, maybe you would care to list those unsuited, to save the rest of us some time and effort?
jewilson said:
I know very few good drivers being made, regardless of price that are NOT big ticket items. A crappy driver is a crappy driver, regardless if it is 6" or 15" Diameter.
jewilson said:
If you check the T/S parameters of small drivers you find that they do not produce low frequencies at all above certain relatively low sound pressure levels, no matter how big you make the box.
And if you attempt to force them to produce any serious amount of low frequencies the extremely long excoursion required will cause sever distortion that affects the entire frequency range, whereas a larger driver moves a much smaller distance, remains more linear and BTW can do so much faster, as the stroke is proportionatly shorter.
jewilson said:
Good thing too, as in order to support correct wavelaunch throughout at least the formant range of music and the human voice you need around 24" baffle width.
jewilson said:
That is again clearly and illustrably chemcially pure horseshit. A small, light car with a large engine (which are very rarely found in such small and light cars) will potentially accelerate better than a heavier, larger car with a smaller engine, assuming you can actually get your tires to still hold the road and not just spinn free. But if the larger and heavier car has a superior horsepower to weight ratio it will actually accelerate better and will be better able (given the same road and tires) to put the added power into acceleration.
jewilson said:
You seem to have purchased these books, assuming that the mere fact of possesion gives you understanding. You may wish to actually read these books and look carefully at the variables. It helps.
jewilson said:
You can prefer whatever you like. You have however made clear technical statements (you did not write "I like the sound of smaller drivers better", you wrote "large drivers are bad because of these technical reasons") and made such I may add that are patenetly and demonstrably inaccurate.
jewilson said:
So, are you saying really that a 15" Driver may actually in reality and in the absoilute sense of the word be the better solution, but because of the decor issues (size) and cost such a solution seems inappropriate for you?
That is fine. But your answers actually did not suggest that you felt that because of such issues you preferred to compromise on small speakers, you suggested (and this I believe was the original question) that smaller drivers where in an absolute sense the techically superior solution and large Drivers where only good "to impress your friends".
As someone who has lived with many speaker systems between 6" and 15" over the years and as someone who knows first hand many large format studio monitors I can assure that you get more than just "impressing your friends" from large format systems. I have currently (reluctantly) compromised on a comparably small Speaker System (8" Fullrange Drivers with soon to be added supertweeters and dual 12" Driver subwoofer), but I am also clearly and keenly aware of the sonic penalty payed. A system based around larger format drivers would better, notably so, in a number of areas and not just sound pressure.
My suggestion is simple, all else being equal go for the largest format drivers in each frequency range that you afford to buy, place in your living/listening room and operate correctly. Something like a 21" Sub Woofer, 15" upper bass and lower mid, Extended bandwidth 10" upper mid and 1" Compression Driver/Horn Tweeter combo (or a suitable 15" Coax Driver), with a 1.5" Ringradiator supertweeter above 15KHz comes pretty close. I'd keep the 21" Sub crossed over below around 30...50Hz and make it a sealed box and use the rest on a Dipole Enclosure (read open baffle), preferably cast corrian with an extension waveguide for the 15" and 10" (if used) matching the 21" diameter, to control dispersion.
You should try listen to that sort of system, if you actually would like to know what true detail, dynamics and speed sound like. I think the Pass Rushmore is a good commercial example for something based on a similar philosophy, as are the big (X-1 to WAMM) Wilsons, JM Labs (Grande Utopia) and so on.
Sayonara
Well said Kuei.
I guess we've reached the point of name calling so we are really making progress..............
Of course there are "carppy" 15" drivers- why wouldn't there be?
There are crappy 4" drivers too.
I've noticed jewilson is no longer argueing technical superiority as much- just inconvenience. As I freely admitted, the boxes get big!
You have to have an understanding wife- or a listening room!
So there you go Andre Baptiste- There are a lot of people that think a 15" is a very good thing. Some argue otherwise. Sounds like you should go listen to a system with a good 15" driver!!
I guess we've reached the point of name calling so we are really making progress..............
Of course there are "carppy" 15" drivers- why wouldn't there be?
There are crappy 4" drivers too.
I've noticed jewilson is no longer argueing technical superiority as much- just inconvenience. As I freely admitted, the boxes get big!
You have to have an understanding wife- or a listening room!
So there you go Andre Baptiste- There are a lot of people that think a 15" is a very good thing. Some argue otherwise. Sounds like you should go listen to a system with a good 15" driver!!
Back to the original post. Is a 15" overkill? Just depends on the person. But a 15" driver can sound just as good if not better than a smaller comparable driver. So basically it comes down to the amount of output you want. Maybe you should think about how loud you want it to be and get back to us.
I've edited out some naughty bits from KYW's post. You've been around long enough to know better; the forum policy is no four-letter Anglo-Saxonisms. And I've deleted jewilson's last post for using the same term AND directing a personal attack at KYW. And I've deleted KYW's response.
Come on guys, you're both adults. No food fights. This is your only warning.
Jim and Thorsten, if you want to restate anything ON TOPIC, feel free to. Leave out the bad language and the personal stuff.
Also IMO You`re right with this as well as Your other arguments for big drivers You could have said this nicer (IMHO) 😱
No need for namecalling or to picture others as fools.
When You replace the word music with the word bass above I fully agree with this.
There is nothing that beats bass performance of big drivers - unless bigger or even better - more bass drivers.
When it comes to the smaller driver/higer max. excursion versus bigger driver/smaller max. excursion discussion, I clearly prefer to get moved the same quantity of air from a bigger driver - it sounds better.
Thanks Sy,
Your intervention is appreciated. Sometimes girls just can't behave themselves.
Till: Love your 828 system.
What drivers are they and what horn?
Did you retune the port? What is it that we can see looking in the port?
Cal
Your intervention is appreciated. Sometimes girls just can't behave themselves.
Till: Love your 828 system.
What drivers are they and what horn?
Did you retune the port? What is it that we can see looking in the port?
Cal
Konnichiwa,
Well, no-one can picture someone else as fool, but many people tend to behave suchlike (myself included).
As for being nice - I'm not trying to wind an election, Gush and Berry are....
As for namecalling, I was not going on about anyone personally, I referred in robust anglosaxon to a commonly repeated chestnut of a pseudo theory on acoustics.
And this theory remains exactly what I analysed it as (in the strict chemical sense I may add) no matter how often repeated by those who prefer to parrot others poorely researched and argued theories as fact because they seem to fit with personal prejudices, instead of informing themselves about the facts.
Sayonara
cocolino said:
Well, no-one can picture someone else as fool, but many people tend to behave suchlike (myself included).
As for being nice - I'm not trying to wind an election, Gush and Berry are....
As for namecalling, I was not going on about anyone personally, I referred in robust anglosaxon to a commonly repeated chestnut of a pseudo theory on acoustics.
And this theory remains exactly what I analysed it as (in the strict chemical sense I may add) no matter how often repeated by those who prefer to parrot others poorely researched and argued theories as fact because they seem to fit with personal prejudices, instead of informing themselves about the facts.
Sayonara
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