Try that in a PA system and you will be replacing a rack or more of amplifiers. I also have grave doubts that that little box can handle 2 KW.
I wonder if it isn't merely stepping the audio down to a very low, high current type of output - but that wouldn't explain how he is getting audio to drive the speakers very loud.
-Chris
I wonder if it isn't merely stepping the audio down to a very low, high current type of output - but that wouldn't explain how he is getting audio to drive the speakers very loud.
-Chris
I think I've figured it.
My prediction: that box has a 4R resistor in there, and it's wired in series with the speaker outputs.
The result: if you add more speakers in parallel, the amp doesn't care. It sees 4.01ohm or whatever. If you short the output, the amp doesn't care - it sees 4ohm, and you lose sound.
I think that explanation lines up pretty well with what we see in the video.
Also, note the amp they're using - it's a big Lab Gruppen, possibly the 14KW one. Since there's a potential divider working against the speakers, you'll need something that can source a lot of voltage to get any output.
Of course, connected directly, that amp would cheerfully annihilate any one of those speakers. Bang a few speakers in parallel and add a series R, and it'll probably match up quite well.
Power is cheap, and they've figured out how to make use of that in terms of install systems.
I'm not convinced it's revolutionary, but I wish them good luck.
Chris
My prediction: that box has a 4R resistor in there, and it's wired in series with the speaker outputs.
The result: if you add more speakers in parallel, the amp doesn't care. It sees 4.01ohm or whatever. If you short the output, the amp doesn't care - it sees 4ohm, and you lose sound.
I think that explanation lines up pretty well with what we see in the video.
Also, note the amp they're using - it's a big Lab Gruppen, possibly the 14KW one. Since there's a potential divider working against the speakers, you'll need something that can source a lot of voltage to get any output.
Of course, connected directly, that amp would cheerfully annihilate any one of those speakers. Bang a few speakers in parallel and add a series R, and it'll probably match up quite well.
Power is cheap, and they've figured out how to make use of that in terms of install systems.
I'm not convinced it's revolutionary, but I wish them good luck.
Chris
Your hunch looks very reasonable.
That, or a 4 ohm to 0.1 ohm transformer
Which is not revolutionary at all, I sold lots of my own 100W +100W stereo Headphone amplifiers to almost all recording Studios in Buenos Aires.
Each having a 100W into 4 ohm per channel amplifier, driving an output autotransformer with 2 taps, the "600 ohm" one and the "8 ohm" one
Actually constant voltage ones:
* 18V RMS for the 600 ohm line
* 2V RMS (to account for higher resistive loss) for the 8 ohm one.
This was in the 80´s, today I should add a 4 V RMS tap for 32 ohm headphones, although they still sound pretty loud plugged into the "8 ohm" line.
I also added a clean limiter so headphone amp never ever clipped even by mistake, although the more than 500mW available per ear was deafening if set too high.
Works like a charm and many keep using them even today, 30/35 years later, when "more modern" systems are available; they LOVE the ability to plug "infinite" headphones anywhere "on the wall" connectors and get same results (I also installed a dedicated 3 conductor line around recording rooms).
I also had a special version for large orchestras, same system but with a long snake like wire with jacks every 2 meters or so to make it portable.
They couldn´t believe you (like in the video he he) could connect *any* number of headphones with no problems at all.
Theoretical maximum was 100/150 pairs; of course, ... nobody ever approached that.
That, or a 4 ohm to 0.1 ohm transformer
Which is not revolutionary at all, I sold lots of my own 100W +100W stereo Headphone amplifiers to almost all recording Studios in Buenos Aires.
Each having a 100W into 4 ohm per channel amplifier, driving an output autotransformer with 2 taps, the "600 ohm" one and the "8 ohm" one
Actually constant voltage ones:
* 18V RMS for the 600 ohm line
* 2V RMS (to account for higher resistive loss) for the 8 ohm one.
This was in the 80´s, today I should add a 4 V RMS tap for 32 ohm headphones, although they still sound pretty loud plugged into the "8 ohm" line.
I also added a clean limiter so headphone amp never ever clipped even by mistake, although the more than 500mW available per ear was deafening if set too high.
Works like a charm and many keep using them even today, 30/35 years later, when "more modern" systems are available; they LOVE the ability to plug "infinite" headphones anywhere "on the wall" connectors and get same results (I also installed a dedicated 3 conductor line around recording rooms).
I also had a special version for large orchestras, same system but with a long snake like wire with jacks every 2 meters or so to make it portable.
They couldn´t believe you (like in the video he he) could connect *any* number of headphones with no problems at all.
Theoretical maximum was 100/150 pairs; of course, ... nobody ever approached that.
About a month ago I put te same question on the Dutch forum Circuits Online.
One of the moderators found the description in a patentimage. Nothing makes clear to me that it is really working. Nobody has experience with the stuff.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/62/e7/5c/61b5bc8a7e3b9e/US9479870.pdf
URL of CO
zero-ohm-ms-4r - Forum - Circuits Online
Here are the claims of the distrubutor;
" Omschrijving:
Het Zero-Ohm systeem is een passief systeem dat tussen de laag-ohmige versterker en de luidsprekers geplaatst wordt. Hierdoor hoeft er geen rekening gehouden te worden met vermogens, impedanties en kabellengtes. Door het gebruik van de MS-4R vervalt de noodzaak voor een 100v transformator. Meerdere luidsprekers kunnen in parallel aangesloten met de mogelijkheid tot impedanties onder de 1 ohm."
Translated:
"Description
The Zero-Ohm system is a passive system that is connected between a low-impedance amplifier and the loudspeakers. By this it is not necessary to take speaker impedances, power and cable lengths in account. By the use of the MS-4R there is no need for using a 100 Volt transformer. Multiple loudspeakers can be connected in parallel, up to impedances as low as 1 Ohm"
The website of Zero Ohms
Zero Ohm Systems
One of the moderators found the description in a patentimage. Nothing makes clear to me that it is really working. Nobody has experience with the stuff.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/62/e7/5c/61b5bc8a7e3b9e/US9479870.pdf
URL of CO
zero-ohm-ms-4r - Forum - Circuits Online
Here are the claims of the distrubutor;
" Omschrijving:
Het Zero-Ohm systeem is een passief systeem dat tussen de laag-ohmige versterker en de luidsprekers geplaatst wordt. Hierdoor hoeft er geen rekening gehouden te worden met vermogens, impedanties en kabellengtes. Door het gebruik van de MS-4R vervalt de noodzaak voor een 100v transformator. Meerdere luidsprekers kunnen in parallel aangesloten met de mogelijkheid tot impedanties onder de 1 ohm."
Translated:
"Description
The Zero-Ohm system is a passive system that is connected between a low-impedance amplifier and the loudspeakers. By this it is not necessary to take speaker impedances, power and cable lengths in account. By the use of the MS-4R there is no need for using a 100 Volt transformer. Multiple loudspeakers can be connected in parallel, up to impedances as low as 1 Ohm"
The website of Zero Ohms
Zero Ohm Systems
Last edited:
Now why don't I trust this?
Anything that apparently changes the laws of physics is bogus. They say the actual unit is small enough to install inside an amplifier and can handle 4,000 watts while being a passive unit seems to good to be true. All this while delivering superior sound quality than transformer based technologies.
Call me skeptical.
-Chris
Anything that apparently changes the laws of physics is bogus. They say the actual unit is small enough to install inside an amplifier and can handle 4,000 watts while being a passive unit seems to good to be true. All this while delivering superior sound quality than transformer based technologies.
Call me skeptical.
-Chris
If you look at the patent, it shows a circuit diagram and some measurements. This might actually work. easy enough to prove with simulation. Sound quality is another thing, but then most transformers (except some of the more expensive ones) wernt great. And remember the application, its not hifi. The big question is how much? if a transformer adds $20 to the price of a speaker, and this distribution box is $1000 then its only worth it if your putting in more than 50 speakers per box (which most amps wont power properly anyway). And an immediate drawback, you cant tap the speakers for different powers (volume) if you want to ballance volumes in the same zone. So its a good idea, well see if it takes.
Just read the patent, it´s ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.
This guy has no idea of Electricity, Electronics, Physics, you name it.
NO CLUE.
Which sadly comments on the very low level of Patent Examiners who should have rejected it on sight.
The circuit has lots of GROSS errors :
1) it adapts no impedance at all.
Which he proves himself by showing a table of voltage / current / impedance, where lowering impedance keeps voltage but rises current.
The circuit is just a 12000uF electrolytic capacitor in series with load.
2) he uses a polarized capacitor in series with speakers "because for the same can size a polarized one has more capacitance than a bipolar"
Yes, so????
You NEED a bipolar cap if you apply AC to it.
3) has NO CLUE on Voltage meaning, specially AC peak vs. RMS vs. DC ratings: suggests a 63V (DC) cap for 58V RMS signals; a 100V (DC) one for 98V RMS audio and so on.
NO CLUE
4) speaks about large quantity of speakers in parallel (mentions 50 or more) BUT "you should not load ampllifier with less than 1 ohm"
It´s so idiotic/nonsensical that it does not even qualify as "snake oil"
Patent link:
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/62/e7/5c/61b5bc8a7e3b9e/US9479870.pdf
Almost forgot: claims amp protection will never be triggered because even 50 speakers in parallel are DC isolated from it
I´d LOVE to connect 50 speakers in parallel , through a polarized 12000uF cap, to a 2kW or 4kW amp and play some music ... although I should save it for 4 of July fireworks
"Today you can patent ANYTHING"
EDIT: almost forgot: he claims that capacitor "gets energy from amplifier" and somehow (magically) distributes it evenly between speakers, no matter how many, and it somehow (magically) gives each proper voltage and current.
Oh, and that lots of speakers in parallel somehow (magically) show the correct impedance to amplifier, and/or said capacitor avoids (magically) their triggering protection.
A trainload of nonsense, a truckload does not even start describing it.
This guy has no idea of Electricity, Electronics, Physics, you name it.
NO CLUE.
Which sadly comments on the very low level of Patent Examiners
who should have rejected it on sight.The circuit has lots of GROSS errors :
1) it adapts no impedance at all.
Which he proves himself by showing a table of voltage / current / impedance, where lowering impedance keeps voltage but rises current.
The circuit is just a 12000uF electrolytic capacitor in series with load.
2) he uses a polarized capacitor in series with speakers "because for the same can size a polarized one has more capacitance than a bipolar"
Yes, so????
You NEED a bipolar cap if you apply AC to it.
3) has NO CLUE on Voltage meaning, specially AC peak vs. RMS vs. DC ratings: suggests a 63V (DC) cap for 58V RMS signals; a 100V (DC) one for 98V RMS audio and so on.
NO CLUE
4) speaks about large quantity of speakers in parallel (mentions 50 or more) BUT "you should not load ampllifier with less than 1 ohm"
It´s so idiotic/nonsensical that it does not even qualify as "snake oil"
Patent link:
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/62/e7/5c/61b5bc8a7e3b9e/US9479870.pdf
Almost forgot: claims amp protection will never be triggered because even 50 speakers in parallel are DC isolated from it
I´d LOVE to connect 50 speakers in parallel , through a polarized 12000uF cap, to a 2kW or 4kW amp and play some music ... although I should save it for 4 of July fireworks
"Today you can patent ANYTHING"
EDIT: almost forgot: he claims that capacitor "gets energy from amplifier" and somehow (magically) distributes it evenly between speakers, no matter how many, and it somehow (magically) gives each proper voltage and current.
Oh, and that lots of speakers in parallel somehow (magically) show the correct impedance to amplifier, and/or said capacitor avoids (magically) their triggering protection.
A trainload of nonsense, a truckload does not even start describing it.
Last edited:
I mean, I'm pretty sure my 4R resistor in series is a better idea, and that was just me messing around.
Seems to me like they're just hoping a large PA amp can source enough current to run a bunch of low-power low-impedance speakers.
It's not the worst assumption - high-power PA amps can put out of the order of 100A, so if you want each speaker to receive 1A (8 watts into an 8ohm speaker), you could run 100 of them in parallel.
I'm beginning to wonder if they just needed to make a does-nothing black box so they can get a patent and make their company look more legit.
Chris
Oh, but your idea would work, what´s the fun in that?
Well, they might test it with an 800W into 0.08 ohm load, which is very doable, and it would work very well.
I suspect the same and more.
Now that they have:
* Patents ... more than one, first one in Greece, the one we saw in USA and probably more.
* exposed to the World in an Audio Expo.
* a Registered Company, probably in more than one Country too.
* a webpage and own NIC registering.
* enthusiastic comments in a couple nerd/Tech pages and many uninformed ones which for unknown reasons love to speak about Science (but no real clue)
they can collect a ton of money from investors; now they can show quite an impressive portfolio.
Absolute worst case, they can use one of the many Startup financing sites.
Funny thing, they priced it at 31000 U$D so NOBODY buys and tests one
Nothing new, just following the path of the Self filling water bottle, the free energy guys and a ton others.
At $3100 US, even if it did everything they say nobody will buy it. These are not for hifi, they will not be bought by audiophiles (the ones with more money than brains) they are for commercial installs (stores and restaruant cielings) where money is usually more important than sound quality, and $3100 buys a lot of transformers, that you can tap.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.