The only thing that caught my eye was,
"I also don't have the parts to complete the amp yet, they require significantly more power than full sized speakers." So if the drivers consume tens to hundreds of watts to drive them, heat is a significant issue. Even those little 7w christmas tree lights of yore are hot to the touch. So do you have a hafler sized heat sink on each driver? As to hearing 1Hz, skeptical. I've felt 20Hz, not sure I hear it. But good luck, always like to see new stuff. Maybe the 1Hz driver could be used for some other purpose in the end, like a new chair shaker for movies.
"I also don't have the parts to complete the amp yet, they require significantly more power than full sized speakers." So if the drivers consume tens to hundreds of watts to drive them, heat is a significant issue. Even those little 7w christmas tree lights of yore are hot to the touch. So do you have a hafler sized heat sink on each driver? As to hearing 1Hz, skeptical. I've felt 20Hz, not sure I hear it. But good luck, always like to see new stuff. Maybe the 1Hz driver could be used for some other purpose in the end, like a new chair shaker for movies.
Some of these arguments seem silly. I could argue that you can't see yellow on a computer monitor because its RGB, therefore it doesn't count as seeing yellow. An argument that you can't hear 5Hz unless you are feeling it and or its via bone conduction is same type of argument. "Hearing" is a mental experience, as is seeing yellow on a computer monitor. In the case of my experiment with hearing 5Hz, the mental experience was distinctly different from hearing 10Hz or any other harmonic of 5Hz. Therefore if I didn't hear it then you don't see yellow.
This is precisely why I'm limiting my responses and not continuing to argue with them. There's so much stupidity and presumptuousness in the responses I don't even know where to begin. They aren't trying to be productive or provide practical arguments with logical conclusions relating to the intended result, they are just trying to be trolls.
Every argument against me has been rendered moot, but they are too preoccupied with being petty to notice.
There's also the fundamental point that I am not here to prove anything because I am just looking for a research partner and I can just prove it in the real-world, which would have been apparent to anyone reading the thread.
Actually the eye does not have "yellow" receptors. The eye also has an RGB system and the brain interprets. The question is does the ear have the capability to sense 5Hz. I am skeptical. Just like the eye does not see IR because no sensor responds to it. And what are you doing about heat?
If you think you can hear 1Hz simply have someone swing partway open and nearly closed (without hitting the stop moldings) an interior partition door once per second. It isn't particularly difficult. Now tell me what you heard besides the grunting of the "transducer" and the swish of air moving past the door.
Mike, let me respond to that by providing you with an example of a productive, coherent, mature argument, unlike what has been seen recently.
Despite assumptions, my driver is capable of acting like a fan on a hot day, so it can move quite a lot of air.
I've already expressed that a sine sweep from 1hz to 20hz and up sounds precisely like an increasing pure sine wave with no perceptible deviations.
The response is both audible and, as you would expect, felt.
I've already made my point that the academic source of the frequency audibility is irrelevant to me since it doesn't matter on a practical level as there is no practical alternative for producing such frequencies and it sounds precisely as you would expect regardless.
Now, there are three logical possibilities.
Either I am
1. Lying.
2. Crazy.
3. Telling the truth.
To those that actually read the intent of the thread, you would know that I am searching for a research and development partner.
Now here is the interesting part.
If I am lying, crazy, or telling the truth, it will be revealed in that place called "real life" (sorry, losing a bit of my maturity here) and therefore internet arguments are effectively meaningless.
To individuals actually interested in participating the the intent of the thread, the issue of whether I am lying, crazy, or telling the truth will solve itself.
It is amazing how that works isn't it?
Despite assumptions, my driver is capable of acting like a fan on a hot day, so it can move quite a lot of air.
I've already expressed that a sine sweep from 1hz to 20hz and up sounds precisely like an increasing pure sine wave with no perceptible deviations.
The response is both audible and, as you would expect, felt.
I've already made my point that the academic source of the frequency audibility is irrelevant to me since it doesn't matter on a practical level as there is no practical alternative for producing such frequencies and it sounds precisely as you would expect regardless.
Now, there are three logical possibilities.
Either I am
1. Lying.
2. Crazy.
3. Telling the truth.
To those that actually read the intent of the thread, you would know that I am searching for a research and development partner.
Now here is the interesting part.
If I am lying, crazy, or telling the truth, it will be revealed in that place called "real life" (sorry, losing a bit of my maturity here) and therefore internet arguments are effectively meaningless.
To individuals actually interested in participating the the intent of the thread, the issue of whether I am lying, crazy, or telling the truth will solve itself.
It is amazing how that works isn't it?
Some small loudspeakers, such as Frugel-Hotn Lite, do a really good job of this and listening in isolation seem to do lower bass than they actually do. It is really interesting to watch peoples face when you play something like Matt Dunkly: Czech Film Orchestra, Rahman: Dacoit Dual.
dave
I'm going to throw out some science with actual numbers here, to show why I just do not believe these claims.
See the attached plot that combines data from many studies. This is taken from the 2004 paper:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8436733_Hearing_at_low_and_infrasonic_frequenciesGoogle it to get the full PDF for free.
So, this plot shows the hearing threshold, that is the minimum SPL that is needed at the ear to perceive a particular frequency. Keep in mind that the description in the text of what ULF sounds like is not a "tone" but more like "puff, puff, puff" as your ear detects some pressure changes. That's not a "tone".
Look at the y-axis of the figure. At 5Hz you need to reach 110 dB to perceive anything whatsoever. Now from what I understand this is a headphone application. This implies the transducer is relatively small. Small transducers trying to reproduce LF tend to have a lot of distortion (please show us your distortion data if you claim otherwise). Also, small transducers tend to roll off way above the single digits, so you are kind of below the passband. The OP mentioned earlier that his transducers were "a black hole of inefficiency" (see post 64). This implies some insane amount of power input to reach these high SPLs at ULF even if the transducer is at close range. 1 Hertz is not even on the plot (remember 2Hz is an octave higher), and I assume that is because no one ever heard this frequency or a researcher would have produced a data point.
So, like I mentioned before many of your claims seem rather unbelievable. In the past there have certainly been pioneers who have made huge leaps forward, but for every Bob Carver there have been many, many Mike Lindells. Don't be that guy. Show us the "proof" (e.g. preliminary data, measurements, etc. no just anecdotal stuff), and then you will find that everyone will get on board and scoop up your revolutionary products faster than you can supply them to the market.
See the attached plot that combines data from many studies. This is taken from the 2004 paper:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8436733_Hearing_at_low_and_infrasonic_frequenciesGoogle it to get the full PDF for free.
So, this plot shows the hearing threshold, that is the minimum SPL that is needed at the ear to perceive a particular frequency. Keep in mind that the description in the text of what ULF sounds like is not a "tone" but more like "puff, puff, puff" as your ear detects some pressure changes. That's not a "tone".
Look at the y-axis of the figure. At 5Hz you need to reach 110 dB to perceive anything whatsoever. Now from what I understand this is a headphone application. This implies the transducer is relatively small. Small transducers trying to reproduce LF tend to have a lot of distortion (please show us your distortion data if you claim otherwise). Also, small transducers tend to roll off way above the single digits, so you are kind of below the passband. The OP mentioned earlier that his transducers were "a black hole of inefficiency" (see post 64). This implies some insane amount of power input to reach these high SPLs at ULF even if the transducer is at close range. 1 Hertz is not even on the plot (remember 2Hz is an octave higher), and I assume that is because no one ever heard this frequency or a researcher would have produced a data point.
So, like I mentioned before many of your claims seem rather unbelievable. In the past there have certainly been pioneers who have made huge leaps forward, but for every Bob Carver there have been many, many Mike Lindells. Don't be that guy. Show us the "proof" (e.g. preliminary data, measurements, etc. no just anecdotal stuff), and then you will find that everyone will get on board and scoop up your revolutionary products faster than you can supply them to the market.
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So, one of these for each ear?
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/eminent-technology-trw-17-rotary-subwoofer
Charlie. I implore you once again to carefully read my previous posts so you understand that the information you are providing, even if it is correct, has no practical relevance to my intent. It is purely academic.
Every word you type shows that you are more interested in proving your point than reading my words.
Every word you type shows that you are more interested in proving your point than reading my words.
Ha, I wish. Before I discovered the drivers I'm developing I thought those were the only way to produce such low frequencies. I have never heard one though.
It's hard for me to see how you are transcending science with your new technology, but I suppose that is the very nature of radical breakthrough stuff.
Keep us posted on any tangible developments.
Keep us posted on any tangible developments.
In May I should have something to show to anyone willing to come to my location. Possibly sooner if the 3d printed frame works out the way I hope.
I could re-construct one of my old prototypes but they would be a bit of a nightmare to rebuild and more importantly, I am not willing to casually show off the driver technology to random strangers quite yet and there is no way that I know of to visually cover the drivers without sound degradation so I want to wait until I'm closer to completion before I let the cat out of the bag.
Unless the person has a real intent to work with me, then the story is different.
I could re-construct one of my old prototypes but they would be a bit of a nightmare to rebuild and more importantly, I am not willing to casually show off the driver technology to random strangers quite yet and there is no way that I know of to visually cover the drivers without sound degradation so I want to wait until I'm closer to completion before I let the cat out of the bag.
Unless the person has a real intent to work with me, then the story is different.
I've been to similar experience as well. It was cleanly produced <20Hz note via multiple 18" drivers. It's more of felt experience (on my a$$ and back because I was sitting on a sofa) than hearing it. What I've heard was things in the room rattling. When I see claims about hearing <20Hz note, it immediately raises suspicion.
Here's Diyaudio not Kickstarter or Shark Tank...
I'm not interested in your technology because it's yours.If you want an amplifier you ask a guy to make an amplifier by telling the requirements.If you want complete secrecy and collaboration you talk to the right people in the right place, sign the right NDA, the right contract , pay the right money and hope for the best .You can't find the right people for a bussiness on a forum where you can't even see to whom you are talking.You are supposed to run the bussiness in your interest yet you have no idea to whom you are talking to...
It's called networking.
Also I'm not looking for investment. I am looking for read title of thread. I am losing my patience with people that do not know how to read.
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All this willie waving and flat-earth reasoning is pointless. The OP may be on to something or he may not. He just wants some help to find out without disclosing too much.
We are all passionate about audio if we are here and some of us worked or are working in very high tech industries having quite a background in physics.Pretending that nobody listen to you or doesn't have the ability to understand you is a bit weird honestly.They already wrote you 5 pages.
I'm sorry to keep harping on your thread. Honestly, if you have something new and worthwhile it would be amazing if it could come to fruition.
I think one problem is that your initial post reads sort of like one of those pyramid schemes, where they are looking for people with "potential who are willing to learn and are really motivated". You know, like Amway or something. Selling stuff door to door. Term life insurance.
It would probably be better if you listed the areas that you hope to gain expertise in. Is it materials? Is it analog circuit design? Transducer/magnetic circuit design? Programming? Etc. etc. These people, even if motivated, are not interchangable. Perhaps you do not want to show your cards, but to be so vague might raise flags with legitimate potentials. I mean, do you want a motivated lumberjack to apply? What are the skills you are looking for?
Also, if you are only looking for people who can "think creatively and are results driven" then just put an ad in the paper in the nearest big city. That's about as good as a post here, and you will narrow it down to people who will actually show up in person. You never know, you might get the perfect partner that way.
Well, I have searched for a long time for individuals like myself so I am willing to take anybody at this point. Honestly another brain and another pair of hands would significantly boost my productivity. You wouldn't believe how often I make tiny stupid mistakes when ordering PCBs or custom parts, or how often I try to come up with a solution to something and there was another, better, obvious solution staring at me in the face. Another pair of eyes and brain would have potentially saved me half of the money I've spent so far on the project and who knows how much time.
As for expertise, I have taught myself everything I've needed to know for everything I have needed to do. Even now I am learning about high vacuum systems so I can make custom nano composite materials which has a world of implications (and it is also the most viable way to commercially produce my diaphragms). I do not see why another person cannot do the same, I am confident that I could efficiently teach someone and get them up to speed fairly quickly for practical purposes.
That being said, it really is mostly a creative endeavor at it's heart. Coming up with new technologies is hugely dependent on how well you can think outside the box.
I have never considered the luxury of specialists but I am more accurately searching for someone who's intent is to move audio technology forward, which is a multidisciplinary and high creativity task, so searching for specialists is not the most productive thing for that intent unless the specialist just happens to also be interested in audio R&D.
I will eventually need a DSP specialist and I could certainly use someone knowledgeable about high vacuum sputtering systems as I will need to create my own custom one (god help me on that).
For now I am keeping my expectations low and just looking for another person like myself as it would make a world of difference.
Probably not a bad idea actually. My concern with that plan is that, finding someone who is interested in audio development is extremely niche to put it gently. So the highest probability would be on sites like this. But it's worth trying.
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