Hello,
There are plenty of course.
Here my DIY project made for my expectations.
There are plenty of course.
Here my DIY project made for my expectations.
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How charming...
Nope, I decided to make dedicated thread and linked to a GB. And it is what is saying my last post in this thread.
As far I know I am one of the members who imputed the most and helped a lot in miro's thread. Which is absolutly not your case. I have given there an enhanced two layers pcb.
So I think your input had somewhat a lot of impudence.
Nope, I decided to make dedicated thread and linked to a GB. And it is what is saying my last post in this thread.
As far I know I am one of the members who imputed the most and helped a lot in miro's thread. Which is absolutly not your case. I have given there an enhanced two layers pcb.
So I think your input had somewhat a lot of impudence.
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Cheap? How much cost by the time an I2SoverUSB and all the power supplies are added (and assuming you want it to sound good as possible)?
75 euros w/o VAT.
I2S to PCM from Ian, I don't remember.
Power supplies : plenty of projects from Salas to DIY cheap projects.
R-Core wirh 4 secondaries can be found at 25 euros.
Two AD1862, between 50 to 100 euros.
There is not a lot of components either, while Mouser, Digikey are not cheap.
I find it cheap related to the result at equal price of what you can find at Topping and all that mass market brands. The R2R witth pcm1704 is 3500 euros, and that is not a better sounding chip than the ad1862.
Now, it is a quiet core base for whom wanting more options like super clocks, tubes, discrete i/v... the good news is it doesn t need a sparkos or Burson discrete to sound good.
And the versatility for the experienced people allows many I/V testing possibilities. Without multiplying the boards. So cheaper.
Some has already the traffos or the chips so can be cheap yes.
If you have nothing, it should cost at minima around 250 euros I think for the simpliest solution if you are outside Europe but if you have crazy taxes for the frontend. Haven t tested Diyhink ad1862 front end board so I ca not talk.
Of course forget it if needing DSD, 24 bits.
It is made for 16 bits.
But compared to what I see from some copied TDA 1541 projects, yes I think it is cheaper and better sounding.
I2S to PCM from Ian, I don't remember.
Power supplies : plenty of projects from Salas to DIY cheap projects.
R-Core wirh 4 secondaries can be found at 25 euros.
Two AD1862, between 50 to 100 euros.
There is not a lot of components either, while Mouser, Digikey are not cheap.
I find it cheap related to the result at equal price of what you can find at Topping and all that mass market brands. The R2R witth pcm1704 is 3500 euros, and that is not a better sounding chip than the ad1862.
Now, it is a quiet core base for whom wanting more options like super clocks, tubes, discrete i/v... the good news is it doesn t need a sparkos or Burson discrete to sound good.
And the versatility for the experienced people allows many I/V testing possibilities. Without multiplying the boards. So cheaper.
Some has already the traffos or the chips so can be cheap yes.
If you have nothing, it should cost at minima around 250 euros I think for the simpliest solution if you are outside Europe but if you have crazy taxes for the frontend. Haven t tested Diyhink ad1862 front end board so I ca not talk.
Of course forget it if needing DSD, 24 bits.
It is made for 16 bits.
But compared to what I see from some copied TDA 1541 projects, yes I think it is cheaper and better sounding.
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75 euros w/o VAT.
I2S to PCM from Ian, I don't remember.His prices increased a lot
Power supplies : plenty of projects from Salas to DIY cheap projects.
R-Core wirh 4 secondaries can be found at 25 euros.
Two AD1862, between 50 to 100 euros.
There is not a lot of components either, while Mouser, Digikey are not cheap.
I find it cheap related to the result at equal price of what you can find at Topping and all that mass market brands.
Now, it is a sane base for whom wanting more options like super clocks, tubes, discrete i/v... the good news us it doesn t need a sparkos or Burson discrete to sound good.
And the versatility for the experienced people allows many I/V testing possibilities. .
Some has already the traffos or the chips so can be cheap yes.
If you have nothing, it should cost at minima around 250 euros I think for the simpliest solution if you are outside Europe but if you have crazy taxes for the frontend. Haven t tested Diyhink ad1862 front end board so I can not talk
Of course forget it if needing DSD, 24 bits.
It is made for 16 bits.
I2S to PCM from Ian, I don't remember.His prices increased a lot
Power supplies : plenty of projects from Salas to DIY cheap projects.
R-Core wirh 4 secondaries can be found at 25 euros.
Two AD1862, between 50 to 100 euros.
There is not a lot of components either, while Mouser, Digikey are not cheap.
I find it cheap related to the result at equal price of what you can find at Topping and all that mass market brands.
Now, it is a sane base for whom wanting more options like super clocks, tubes, discrete i/v... the good news us it doesn t need a sparkos or Burson discrete to sound good.
And the versatility for the experienced people allows many I/V testing possibilities. .
Some has already the traffos or the chips so can be cheap yes.
If you have nothing, it should cost at minima around 250 euros I think for the simpliest solution if you are outside Europe but if you have crazy taxes for the frontend. Haven t tested Diyhink ad1862 front end board so I can not talk
Of course forget it if needing DSD, 24 bits.
It is made for 16 bits.
Looks to me like the dac board has, what, something like 8 voltage rails to power, and I know I2SoverUSB sounds best with 2 isolated power supplies.
For my dacs to sound their best, I use one transformer winding and one voltage regulator for each rail. So in this case that would add up to 10 regulators and 10 transformer secondaries.
A fairly modest regulator board (one with rectifiers and a voltage adjustment pot) might cost, ummm, maybe something like $30? So, maybe $300 for regulators. Maybe 3 R-core transformers. Add a hum/ground breaker circuit for AC line ground.
I2SoverUSB is around $100.
Don't know what a populated dac board would cost? Maybe $200? A little more?
So, I could easily see a project like this costing $500 and possibly more. As you know, good voltage regulators are important for good sound. Shouldn't be too hard to hit $700 for this dac?
Of course it might be great sound for that type of cost. But, a lot of people would probably consider anything more than $200 for dac as not cheap. Some people even consider anything more than $100 as not cheap.
So I would have to say as I have said before: there are no good, cheap dacs.
For my dacs to sound their best, I use one transformer winding and one voltage regulator for each rail. So in this case that would add up to 10 regulators and 10 transformer secondaries.
A fairly modest regulator board (one with rectifiers and a voltage adjustment pot) might cost, ummm, maybe something like $30? So, maybe $300 for regulators. Maybe 3 R-core transformers. Add a hum/ground breaker circuit for AC line ground.
I2SoverUSB is around $100.
Don't know what a populated dac board would cost? Maybe $200? A little more?
So, I could easily see a project like this costing $500 and possibly more. As you know, good voltage regulators are important for good sound. Shouldn't be too hard to hit $700 for this dac?
Of course it might be great sound for that type of cost. But, a lot of people would probably consider anything more than $200 for dac as not cheap. Some people even consider anything more than $100 as not cheap.
So I would have to say as I have said before: there are no good, cheap dacs.
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Power supplies :
Two plugs for the 12V of the two dac chips. They are here to reduce the surface loop on the pcb while segregating from each others as it is a two mono dac chips. Permits a good trade off staying with 4 layers "only)". The wires belongs to the same -12/0/+12 V PS.
One plug for the op amps. If the opamps are okay for 12V you also can send them to the same reg as above. They can see the same "star ground" powersupply for sure, the on boards decoupling caps make most of the job. Of course you can split it with two regs. Sligthy better according the op amp (PSRR & CMRR), can be needed if you need to power a +5V op amps or want to power some with 18V.
One plug for the -5V/0/+5V. On board there is a jumper to allow the clean side to of the jlsounds TO be powered from this 5V w/o crossing return current between it and the above AD1862 L channel. There is also if one prefer to reg it an header on the close side, simply leave the jumper.
One board to rule them all.
The JLSounds USB dirt side can be feeded from the streaming device it is less critic, however there is a plus to feed it with one reg too because of that damned shared GND wire in USB cables but a 7805 reg is enough.
7812 & 7912 are enough for My BOM option because of the reg I chose which has good scums rejection, although a big output cap is needed >= 5000 uF with these 78xx family to use them a resistive way instead of inductive, so it is not cheaper than an average 30 euros reg.
I would say the only critic reg is the 5V digital side. But again AD1862 has good PSRR for 16 bits materials.
My BOM option needs only two op amps and provide some of the lythics purchased at Mouser. According the price you sourced the AD1862, it could cost more or less 200 euros populated without the two voltage regs. The front end is expensive but no slouch. As usual can cost a lot more according the clock you use. No economy to look for here. Casing can be expensive, put it in a chineese cheap DAC you don't like is the best option !
About the regs, it could be cheap and far better than most integrated regs to use no regs but instead discrete voltage stabilizers à la Pedja Rogic : sounds much better, "faster" and very inexpensive, You need a 2 euros verroboard and few components. AD1862 rejection and the op amps will do the rest as far they are feeded with fast low impedance such "stabilisers" have. It doesn't need a WJ super reg super expensive to be musical.
Spending 500 to 700 euros is not what I want to achieve here. It sounds alreaaaaady very quiet and detailled, natural & non fatiguing without all what you list. Of course after, you are rigth. As you know it can always go further... diminishing return territory.
Let say 300 euros max if you buy the plugs and header elswhere than Mouser with my BOM choice option, that makes the biggest difference.
Now it is also a board for experimenting. Very chaeper than buying several CHIFI at 100/200 euros that basicly sounds very near and borring.
It makes sense for DIY and is not the same "targett" than ASR SINAD God people purchasers in a sofa. Btw doesn't sound the same, so all is okay. I voiced it mainly for acoustical instruments and voices. I also listen to POP and it is snappy enough. It will be nearer in sound withsome tube DAC sounds with "my BOM option" wit a touch of H2 to achieve that. H3 below of course then all the rest very low and almost equal, I didn't wanted a 300B sound, too much colored for my tastes.
So not brigth, not too much warm, just what one need. Yet clear and detailled with no drilling highs while playing cymballs and trumpet powerfull enough though. It's a choice, I wanted it to sound "mat" sligthy dark background... with a little weigth and meat...hard to describe sound experience. It sounds like so in several different systems. So concistant enough to add its nice touch. Not made for listen to Karajan SACD reccording if you know what I mean.
Two plugs for the 12V of the two dac chips. They are here to reduce the surface loop on the pcb while segregating from each others as it is a two mono dac chips. Permits a good trade off staying with 4 layers "only)". The wires belongs to the same -12/0/+12 V PS.
One plug for the op amps. If the opamps are okay for 12V you also can send them to the same reg as above. They can see the same "star ground" powersupply for sure, the on boards decoupling caps make most of the job. Of course you can split it with two regs. Sligthy better according the op amp (PSRR & CMRR), can be needed if you need to power a +5V op amps or want to power some with 18V.
One plug for the -5V/0/+5V. On board there is a jumper to allow the clean side to of the jlsounds TO be powered from this 5V w/o crossing return current between it and the above AD1862 L channel. There is also if one prefer to reg it an header on the close side, simply leave the jumper.
One board to rule them all.
The JLSounds USB dirt side can be feeded from the streaming device it is less critic, however there is a plus to feed it with one reg too because of that damned shared GND wire in USB cables but a 7805 reg is enough.
7812 & 7912 are enough for My BOM option because of the reg I chose which has good scums rejection, although a big output cap is needed >= 5000 uF with these 78xx family to use them a resistive way instead of inductive, so it is not cheaper than an average 30 euros reg.
I would say the only critic reg is the 5V digital side. But again AD1862 has good PSRR for 16 bits materials.
My BOM option needs only two op amps and provide some of the lythics purchased at Mouser. According the price you sourced the AD1862, it could cost more or less 200 euros populated without the two voltage regs. The front end is expensive but no slouch. As usual can cost a lot more according the clock you use. No economy to look for here. Casing can be expensive, put it in a chineese cheap DAC you don't like is the best option !
About the regs, it could be cheap and far better than most integrated regs to use no regs but instead discrete voltage stabilizers à la Pedja Rogic : sounds much better, "faster" and very inexpensive, You need a 2 euros verroboard and few components. AD1862 rejection and the op amps will do the rest as far they are feeded with fast low impedance such "stabilisers" have. It doesn't need a WJ super reg super expensive to be musical.
Spending 500 to 700 euros is not what I want to achieve here. It sounds alreaaaaady very quiet and detailled, natural & non fatiguing without all what you list. Of course after, you are rigth. As you know it can always go further... diminishing return territory.
Let say 300 euros max if you buy the plugs and header elswhere than Mouser with my BOM choice option, that makes the biggest difference.
Now it is also a board for experimenting. Very chaeper than buying several CHIFI at 100/200 euros that basicly sounds very near and borring.
It makes sense for DIY and is not the same "targett" than ASR SINAD God people purchasers in a sofa. Btw doesn't sound the same, so all is okay. I voiced it mainly for acoustical instruments and voices. I also listen to POP and it is snappy enough. It will be nearer in sound withsome tube DAC sounds with "my BOM option" wit a touch of H2 to achieve that. H3 below of course then all the rest very low and almost equal, I didn't wanted a 300B sound, too much colored for my tastes.
So not brigth, not too much warm, just what one need. Yet clear and detailled with no drilling highs while playing cymballs and trumpet powerfull enough though. It's a choice, I wanted it to sound "mat" sligthy dark background... with a little weigth and meat...hard to describe sound experience. It sounds like so in several different systems. So concistant enough to add its nice touch. Not made for listen to Karajan SACD reccording if you know what I mean.
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I had no pink panther left to scale the size ! 
So a little spoon yummy caféblink eyes made the job... Use the spoon in the rigth order number though.
The pcb is allowing (halloween?) AD811 CFA, as well as VFAs and op861 TIA. AD811 is not a good ad1862 partner I have found after having tried some power supplies and passive parts. It is not bad and is among the best but not what I expected. Btw in 10 to 12V, it didn't seems to need heatsink with the smd...
So a little spoon yummy caféblink eyes made the job... Use the spoon in the rigth order number though.The pcb is allowing (halloween?) AD811 CFA, as well as VFAs and op861 TIA. AD811 is not a good ad1862 partner I have found after having tried some power supplies and passive parts. It is not bad and is among the best but not what I expected. Btw in 10 to 12V, it didn't seems to need heatsink with the smd...
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with the parcell to US, yes you are rigth. In France it costed me 115 euros with VAT + registred parcel.
The IantoPCM with 2" uf-l cable should be something too. While I think a simplier JLSOUNDS is good enough for such a pproject. Spending too much makes not sense here. The roadmap was to try that sounds good with few things but well bringed togethers. But for US & Canada and people having FifoPi, the Ian I2S to PCM seems better because I blieve it is reclocked after the cpld from the quiet clock domain of the FifoPi. Not sure about that. JLSOUNDS cpld adds its jitter to the NDK A clock domain, I'd like to have your thougths about that.
More monney, it is better to go with more valued project like the one of MarcelVdG. And if you one want to try without chosen BOM which is a part of the offer here for the succss, then th e two layers of miro1360 is very nice as well, the AD1862 is a good dac chip.
I just wanted to beyond to beat a little the <diminishing return territorry but not too much". Seems it is nice enough to be proposed.
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The way we use JL Sounds I2SoverUSB here is with two isolated 5v power supplies, external clocking, and reclocking before the dac (like Cestrian's clock and reclocker board, for example). Plus, we use your .22uf MU caps for all the clocking circuitry bypass. Likely its a little better than what Ian is doing, but not completely sure because I haven't tried his most recent stuff. Anyway, going to all those lengths makes an audible difference with Marcel's RTZ dac. And its a very good sounding dac if it has good support circuitry around it.
Anyway, for people already using FIFO_Pi, it probably makes sense to use Ian's other accessories. However, one guy told me he removed his SC Pure clocks from FIFO_Pi and powered the clocks from his own external power supply. Then sent the clock output signals back to FIFO_Pi. He said it clearly sounds better that way. I wouldn't be surprised. I have an earlier FIFO_Pi and never liked the way the clocks sounded in it. Didn't like Ian's McFIFO and its clock board either. If I did like them then I probably wouldn't have created my own clock board thread with reclocker project included. But, that's just my subjective opinion. BTW, I do like the SC Pure clocks though.
Anyway, for people already using FIFO_Pi, it probably makes sense to use Ian's other accessories. However, one guy told me he removed his SC Pure clocks from FIFO_Pi and powered the clocks from his own external power supply. Then sent the clock output signals back to FIFO_Pi. He said it clearly sounds better that way. I wouldn't be surprised. I have an earlier FIFO_Pi and never liked the way the clocks sounded in it. Didn't like Ian's McFIFO and its clock board either. If I did like them then I probably wouldn't have created my own clock board thread with reclocker project included. But, that's just my subjective opinion. BTW, I do like the SC Pure clocks though.
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Makes sense. Of course it is the better way to use the JLSOUNDS board. I whish it had an u-fl socket or a mini SMA for the external recloging in spite of the header.
What I tried to say is, whatever you reclok the JLSOUNDS clean side, it always finish to output through the cpld that divide by two by design to winn some noise floor. But the cpld will add though its own jitter ? Maybe I'm wrong....
What I tried to say is, whatever you reclok the JLSOUNDS clean side, it always finish to output through the cpld that divide by two by design to winn some noise floor. But the cpld will add though its own jitter ? Maybe I'm wrong....
Trying to reclock JL Sounds clean side using its own internal clock does result in the clocks passing through the CPLD.
However, the way we do it avoids that problem. We use our own external clocks, then send our clock signals to the JL Sounds. Then when the signals come out of JL Sounds we reclock those signals again after the CPLD using our own D-flip flops. The way it works is explained in the diagram at: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/general-purpose-dac-clock-board.413001/post-7975729
However, the way we do it avoids that problem. We use our own external clocks, then send our clock signals to the JL Sounds. Then when the signals come out of JL Sounds we reclock those signals again after the CPLD using our own D-flip flops. The way it works is explained in the diagram at: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/general-purpose-dac-clock-board.413001/post-7975729
"Trying to reclock JL Sounds clean side using its own internal clock does result in the clocks passing through the CPLD"
I'm not sure to understand why someone would do that ?!
I think @eclipsevl also made a two boards layout to achieve that, can be a good option too.
I'm not sure to understand why someone would do that ?!
I think @eclipsevl also made a two boards layout to achieve that, can be a good option too.
Okay. I still think the one I linked to will give the best sound. A few people have tried it and report that it makes any of the clocks sound better than they do otherwise. The board has multiple design features that may not be obvious from quick visual inspection. However, a careful analysis of the Gerbers will reveal some of the design approaches. For one thing it matters to use MU caps for all bypass and for voltage regulator input and output caps. Also, bypass capacitor current loops flow on surface layer ground islands without passing through vias for minimal current loop area and minimum inductance. I'm not aware of anyone else spending money on MU caps and designing a board for controlled current flow paths, including keeping most current paths on the ground layer from passing under the clocks. That helps will clock stability and helps to minimize jitter from stray magnetic fields. The voltage regulator is located off to the side so that ground plane return currents to voltage regulator do not pass near the clocks, etc.
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