The hand off of one driver to the next. The parts that are equally disturbed on and off axis.
Don't fix a bad design with DSP. Start with a good concept (and drivers) and use DSP to control it.
Most room effects are very position dependent, don't try and fix those with DSP.
I don't understand the notion that DSP should be a last resort. What perfect drivers do we have to play with anyway? DSP can help us get better results, but why not start with a good potential. There are enough perceptual problems in Stereo as a concept. It can still be quite persuasive in it's ability to (re)create a fake (GDO trademark 😉) acoustic event.
One line describing Stereo has always stuck with me:
Which is kind of true... source: Moulton Laboratories :: The Brave New World: Loudspeakers to the Left of Us! Loudspeakers to the Right of Us!
Don't fix a bad design with DSP. Start with a good concept (and drivers) and use DSP to control it.
Most room effects are very position dependent, don't try and fix those with DSP.
I don't understand the notion that DSP should be a last resort. What perfect drivers do we have to play with anyway? DSP can help us get better results, but why not start with a good potential. There are enough perceptual problems in Stereo as a concept. It can still be quite persuasive in it's ability to (re)create a fake (GDO trademark 😉) acoustic event.
One line describing Stereo has always stuck with me:
Which is kind of true... source: Moulton Laboratories :: The Brave New World: Loudspeakers to the Left of Us! Loudspeakers to the Right of Us!
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I've never used DSP but see it as a powerful, flexible tool for doing the things previously done with analogue processing, xover, delay and FR correction plus the added benefit of precise final fixing at the listening position (all the usual caveats of having to sit with your head in a vice still apply)
you will notice that quite expensive new vinyl cannot compete in terms of sonic quality with the vinyl of 1960-1980 when the makers were into stiff competition for top quality. When i play old jazz records from 1960 i notice these do not sound analytically precise but sound " just musically" l thus have more information they store "mood" I think as some very rare of these had been recorded on a 2 track Revox A77 the sound engineer had no means for silly recording tricks like those musicians who just entered the stage and started to play no light show just music scholarly "authentic"
I should have elucidated a bit more with regards as to what I meant.
I have no issues with digital (or analogue) active crossovers but full on DSP has the danger that people use it to try and 'improve' bad situations with excessive processing. 'Fix it with DSP' is starting to be the reproducing equivalent to 'fixing it in the mix' in the recording world ie over-processing.
So basically we are on the same page I think: Don't try to fix the room. ;-)
Agreed. DSP is not something to make the response completely flat and to make you sleep well. 🙂
Nothing is going to make the response completely flat, get over it! And for bass, do yourself a favour and try to forget all about it, and whatever you do, never ever ever try and boost a null.....ever
Unless you are talking about active speakers, with the amp and DSP/crossover circuitry built in, there is a HUGE gap in available equipment for this kind of setup.
Every time i have needed to resort to multi channel amplification and DSP, I have always needed to hack together some kind of setup with at least 3 pieces of gear and dozens of cables - and no way to control the setup from one remote, and very poor integration with other setups eg: part of a surround sound setup
Every time i have needed to resort to multi channel amplification and DSP, I have always needed to hack together some kind of setup with at least 3 pieces of gear and dozens of cables - and no way to control the setup from one remote, and very poor integration with other setups eg: part of a surround sound setup
So often I identify a member by their avatar. I don't seem to know you any more. 🙂
And when members change their avatars every week or so, some of us old farts get a bit confusticated
Looks like something dangerous.
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Sometimes I wonder if your humorous replies are just meant in jest, or if they are indicative of your failure to understand what is meant by the OP...
A true null is rare and the term often takes on a loose meaning. ie: maybe it's ok to boost around a minor loss..
Yes, in my experience the null created by floor reflection can be boosted a few dbs with a low Q eq ( 1), giving a fuller sound, without any risk of tsunami...
Audiophiles/DIYers (and other passionate people, myself included) tend to be very affirmative and use absolute terms. That ''ever, ever..ever'' made me smile, that's it, don't overthink it Marco.. 😉
I understand what Scott is saying and i partially agree with him, just not so absolutely.
First, we're all here in this DIY hobby to experiment. So, obviously, if nothing is harmful, i'm all for experimentation even if that means learning from errors. In fact; errors are the best way to learn...
Deuzio, null falls into what i call Non-tractionnable EQ situation. You've got no traction. Same when you hit a mechanical limit on a driver: no matter how hard you try to boost that 15-20khz from that 21 inchers, you can't make it whistle like a colibri. No traction.
A 90-100% null is not common (0-10% traction), but even if you have 20-30% traction that's not fun to EQ.
Personnally, when i need any EQ correction that exceeds 8-9db i sure start to look elsewhere (find the problem at the source instead of cheating the signal) which is often a much more efficient way to fix the problem.
Also, since i always equalize using both positive and negative, i have a 16-18db amplitude to work with if i'm restraining myself to 8-9db EQ. That is plenty.
Another thing:
The ''Room-Correction'' term is not making the whole DSP concept any favor...
Basically, it's presented to the public as a magic wand that can solve all acoustic's problems.
It's NOT a magic wand.
Reminds me about the electronic driving assistance stuff on modern cars: might help react faster in various occasions but sure as hell won't transform my grandma into Lewis Hamilton.
The ''Room-Correction'' term is not making the whole DSP concept any favor...
Basically, it's presented to the public as a magic wand that can solve all acoustic's problems.
It's NOT a magic wand.
Reminds me about the electronic driving assistance stuff on modern cars: might help react faster in various occasions but sure as hell won't transform my grandma into Lewis Hamilton.
Self-quoting:
I think we can all agree that most (if not all) of the non-EQ-tractionnable nulls appears in the first 4 octaves, but more precisely, from my experience, between 45hz and 130hz. Woofer territory. That's all room & position dependant.
If you boost like crazy a null at, let's say, 65hz... For a given room, speaker's position and listening spot.. you'll end up with some nasty, boomy, peak if you change your listening spot. Most likely at his worst near the walls/corners. So, it was there, just not at the exact spot you want it...
Signal correction (EQ) is very tricky in the 2nd and 3rd octave. More often you don't correct the driver's or enclosure's response but the room/positions, which is, IMO, not the good way.
As a matter of facts, nulls do not exist, as they show up in measurements in a different way depending of the treatment applied to the raw data ( smoothing, frequency dependant windows, etc...) and depending also if measurments are at one point only or averaging of various positions.
Measurements need interpretation before applying any Eq.
Room modes are generally narrow and position dependant, whereas boundary effect are much smoother and not so position dependant ( it's a quasi power response as according to Allison works).
In a practical sense, audiophile/listener's position, humanoïd earing specs: We don't care about averaging in various positions.
End result is: ''there is no bass, mate!''
...and the best way to adress this issue is to either move yourself (listener's position) and/or change the speakers/room config and/or add acoustical treatment. The so-called room-correction DSP magic wand comes last. Which, bytheway, would be effective as a tweak tool IF the first steps are taken care of.
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