Is single ended worth it?

[Dave2]

Who said audio interconnects cannot make an audible difference? Audio cables made to the industry standard spec will be audibly transparent and won't make audible difference as long as it's not defective. BTW, these points were already covered on this thread.

I checked into the links that Tattoo put up. There were a number of specs for digital audio interconnects, some for shield termination, some for wiring(and not geometry of the wiring, just which wire goes where), and some for shield connections within the connectors themselves. Many of them were referring to balanced cables, which I was not using. There was no spec for single-ended, line-level, RCA patch cords for analog audio transmission. And no spec at all for how an analog cable(not the connector) is to be constructed. So I'm left with that huge variable of what is the industry standard for an RCA patch cord. Or are we to conclude that as long as the grounds are properly terminated, and everything's shielded to spec, and the wires go where they're supposed to, that the rest of the construction of the cable makes no audible difference?

This debate will pick up its usefulness if you start using objectivity in your argument. That's if you crave such thing

That's why I'm asking, help me out. Help me to learn something here. What is this objectivity you're referring to? I've been in test and measurement(did test programs and hardware for precision ADC's for 7 years) for some time now. And this is incidentally where I learned how so many passive components do make a difference. And I've yet to see the test that didn't have some kind of flaw, limitation or doubt to it. And now here you come along saying you've effectively got the holy grail, the unquestionable evidence, but won't reveal what that is. And then it gets very tedious when you effectively say "well, that's your job to find out. The data is out there and anyone worth their weight in salt knows it or at least how to find it" I'm willing to follow some links and read some articles, or even do some quick searches on the topic. But I'm not willing(or have the time) to pour over the internet for days or start my own research project to find the answers to these things. And if that's the requirement to go further with this debate then I have to bow out. I don't have this objective data you speak of.
I've seen measurements with instruments that reveal no differences. But the doubt with these measurement is always whether the measuring instrument is sensitive enough to reveal the differences and whether the particular measurement is looking for the thing that is heard. For example, THD measurements can mask phase-shift and frequency response. Full spectrums can mask or distort things that are aperiodic in nature. Things like waterfall plots can reveal things a single spectrum cannot.
And then don't forget there are things that could make audible differences in cables, or rather the system those cables are in, other than human perception. The R, L and C values of the cable interacting with whatever buffer is driving them and receiving them shifts the poles of the amplifier a bit and will affect it's phase margin and perhaps its settling characteristic. And if the buffer doesn't have the bandwidth, certain aspects of this settling could occur within the audio band, producing non-harmonic spurs in the spectrum. Coaxial cables, which many run-of-the-mill RCA patch cords are, typically have more capacitance than twisted pair cables. And the longer the cable is, the more capacitance it will have, at least in a lumped sense. But rarely do the buffers in most consumer-grade electronics have the capability to drive these coaxial cables as transmission lines. And even if they did, they would have to have the proper termination resistors on either end for even frequency response and good settling.

 

[Dave2]

Actually, let me condense all that blah-blah-blah up there and be more succinct and to the point. I cannot continue with this debate because I cannot at this point in time establish a concrete and precise definition for "industry standard" of RCA patch cords. Only the various aspects I could pull out of the links that Tattoo posted. Couldn't find any definition of wire gauge, length of interconnect, insulation material, capacitance, inductance, resistance, whether the cables should be coaxial, twisted pair, spaghetti, etc. Unless, as mentioned above, we conclude that anything not spec'd doesn't make an audible difference.
So, lacking this, from my perspective, it remains an untestable and unsupportable claim. If I someday come across or formulate this definition, I can proceed with this debate. Perhaps, as you have mentioned, my inability to retrieve or formulate this definition represents a lack of effort, diligence, cognitive ability, experience or education on my part. But until I can get that definition, I cannot agree with or refute your claim.

 

[DF96]

Or are we to conclude that as long as the grounds are properly terminated, and everything's shielded to spec, and the wires go where they're supposed to, that the rest of the construction of the cable makes no audible difference?

Yes, that is precisely what we should conclude. Provided only that the cable is not too long, but in domestic audio this is guaranteed.

But rarely do the buffers in most consumer-grade electronics have the capability to drive these coaxial cables as transmission lines. And even if they did, they would have to have the proper termination resistors on either end for even frequency response and good settling.

At audio frequencies a short interconnect cable is a capacitor. No need to drive as a transmission line; no need for termination. This is fortunate, as the characteristic impedance is reactive and frequency dependent and would be quite difficult to mimic in a simple lumped network. All that is required is that the source can drive the capacitance. Almost all normal commercial audio can do this; only some DIY and some 'high-end' cannot. Hence 'cable fussiness' is a sign of poor equipment design, not a sign of 'fine discrimination'.

So, a domestic audio interconnect is a piece of wire with a shunt capacitor to ground. Ideally it should be shielded to keep out RF and reduce hum.

 

[Evenharmonics]

I checked into the links that Tattoo put up. There were a number of specs for digital audio interconnects, some for shield termination, some for wiring(and not geometry of the wiring, just which wire goes where), and some for shield connections within the connectors themselves. Many of them were referring to balanced cables, which I was not using. There was no spec for single-ended, line-level, RCA patch cords for analog audio transmission. And no spec at all for how an analog cable(not the connector) is to be constructed. So I'm left with that huge variable of what is the industry standard for an RCA patch cord. Or are we to conclude that as long as the grounds are properly terminated, and everything's shielded to spec, and the wires go where they're supposed to, that the rest of the construction of the cable makes no audible difference?

Is this reply to Tattoo? If so, then why did you quote me? If not, then why are you talking about the links he posted instead of the one I posted?

And this is incidentally where I learned how so many passive components do make a difference.

Measurable difference or audible difference?

And I've yet to see the test that didn't have some kind of flaw, limitation or doubt to it.

If you want to base your anecdotal evidence as the prevailing wisdom, then go ahead. 🙄

I'm willing to follow some links and read some articles, or even do some quick searches on the topic.

I thought you already did (post #260): "BTW, followed your link."

But I'm not willing(or have the time) to pour over the internet for days or start my own research project to find the answers to these things. And if that's the requirement to go further with this debate then I have to bow out. I don't have this objective data you speak of.

If you really followed the link I posted, as you claimed, you should've seen the industry specs. I'm wondering if your internet server is doing things that mine doesn't and hiding some info... 😕

I've seen measurements with instruments that reveal no differences. But the doubt with these measurement is always whether the measuring instrument is sensitive enough to reveal the differences and whether the particular measurement is looking for the thing that is heard. For example, THD measurements can mask phase-shift and frequency response. Full spectrums can mask or distort things that are aperiodic in nature. Things like waterfall plots can reveal things a single spectrum cannot.
And then don't forget there are things that could make audible differences in cables, or rather the system those cables are in, other than human perception. The R, L and C values of the cable interacting with whatever buffer is driving them and receiving them shifts the poles of the amplifier a bit and will affect it's phase margin and perhaps its settling characteristic. And if the buffer doesn't have the bandwidth, certain aspects of this settling could occur within the audio band, producing non-harmonic spurs in the spectrum. Coaxial cables, which many run-of-the-mill RCA patch cords are, typically have more capacitance than twisted pair cables. And the longer the cable is, the more capacitance it will have, at least in a lumped sense. But rarely do the buffers in most consumer-grade electronics have the capability to drive these coaxial cables as transmission lines. And even if they did, they would have to have the proper termination resistors on either end for even frequency response and good settling.

If there are any, level matched double blind test would reveal those audible differences, assuming that you crave such info.

 

[Dave2]

First page of hits from your search(and no, this isn't the only page I looked at). This is all that would fit in a post. Only thing that looks like an official, independent spec is the S/PDIF one. But that's a digital format:

S/PDIF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/?title=S/PDIF
Wikipedia
... Format) is a type of digital audio interconnect cable used in consumer audio ... a set of physical layer specifications for carrying digital audio signals between ...

SoundPath Audio Interconnect Cable - SVS
www.svsound.com/s.nl/it.A/id.1859/.f
SVS
Soundpath RCA Subwoofer Cable. High quality single RCA-RCA audio interconnect cable. 4.7 ... Details Tech Specs Press Reviews Customer Reviews ...
What are the electrical specifications for your interconnect ...
audiosensibility.com/.../electrical-specifications-for-your-interconnect-ca...
Model, Resistance ohms/km (at 20C), Capacitance PF/m (1kHz), Impedance ohms, Inductance uH/m (1kHz). Impact SE Interconnects (RCA), 26.4, 32, 34, 0.33.

Audio Interconnects - Wireworld Cables
www.wireworldcable.com/audio-interconnects.html
Platinum Eclipse 7 Interconnect. Platinum Eclipse 7 high end audiophile Audio Interconnect, carbon fiber, best, videophile,. ABOUT PEI / BPI. SPECIFICATIONS.

6moons audio reviews: Interconnects - Theory & Practice
www.6moons.com/audioreviews/interconnects/interconnects.html
Cables: Audio Note AN/Vx interconnects; Siltech Paris interconnects; Gizmo silver ... can give an indication of expected behavior, cable specifications cannot.

QED Reference Audio 40
www.qed.co.uk › Analogue › Phono to Phono
The Audio 40 cable range is an entirely new design concept from QED labs. ... Like most interconnects here, the Reference Audio 40 is a silver-plated copper affair, arranged in a special complementary way – the two ... SPECIFICATIONS.

Silversmith Audio Silver interconnect & speaker cables ...
www.stereophile.com/.../silversmith-audio-silver-interconnect...
Stereophile
Silversmith Audio Silver interconnect & speaker cables Specifications. Sidebar 1: Specifications. Description: Interconnect and loudspeaker cables.

[PDF]Spec Sheet - Crestron
www.crestron.com/...spec.../spec.../default.asp?...
Crestron Electronics
PROCISE® XLR Balanced Audio Interconnects. The PROCISE High-Definition Professional Surround Sound Processor and. Amplifier from Crestron® are ...

Odin Supreme Reference - Nordost
www.nordost.com/...interconnects/.../odin-supreme-reference-analog-int...
Product Information; Specifications · Dealer Locator ... The Odin Supreme Reference Interconnect uses eight of our revolutionary Total Signal Control (TSC) ..

MusicLink Plus RCA Interconnect - Transparent Audio ...
www.transparentcable.com/products/show_product.php?recID...
MusicLink Plus RCA Interconnects are upgradeable to Super level interconnects and above. SPECIFICATIONS. Standard termination: RCA > RCA; Lengths: .5 ...

Lautus Interconnects | Graham Slee
www.gspaudio.co.uk/lautus-audio-interconnect.htm
All Interconnects & Cables >> Lautus Interconnects ... Phono-Phono; Phono-XLR; Digital; USB Audio; User Reviews; Specification; Prices. Lautus Interconnect ...

Monster 402 XLN XTREME Audio Interconnect MPC I402 ...
www.cnet.com/products/...audio-interconnect...audio.../specs/
CNET
View full Monster 402 XLN XTREME Audio Interconnect MPC I402 2C-6M specs on CNET

Ultralink MACH-1 Audio Interconnect Cable audio splitter ...
www.cnet.com/products/...1-audio-interconnect...audio.../specs/
CNET
View full Ultralink MACH-1 Audio Interconnect Cable audio splitter Series specs on CNET.

Reference RCA Interconnect - Transparent Audio ...
www.transparentcable.com/products/show_product.php?recID...
Reference RCA Interconnects are upgradeable to XL level interconnects and above. SPECIFICATIONS. Standard termination: RCA > RCA; Lengths: 1 meter, ...

TOSLINK Interconnect History & Basics | Audioholics
www.audioholics.com/audio-video.../toslink-interconnect-history-basics

Sep 20, 2004 - Contrary to popular belief, there are no lasers used in audio optical ... which are almost never discussed outside of mil-spec requirements, are ...
Van Damme - Specifications - UP-LCOFC Hi-Fi Interconnect ...
www.van-damme.com/25.html
This range comprises a shotgun style twin interconnect cable and 5 conductor sizes of shotgun speaker cable. These cables can be found in many professional ...

Understanding capacitance specs for audio interconnects - AudioCircle
www.audiocircle.com › Circles › Industry Circles › Audio by Van Alstine
Feb 23, 2006 - 8 posts - ‎5 authors
My first post in this forum! My question follows reading Mr. Van Alstine's interesting article on the AVA website regarding audio interconnects.

Silver Serpent RCA Audio Interconnect Cable - Anniversary ...
bettercables.com/products/silver-serpent-audio-rca-interconnect-cable
Exclusively manufactured to BetterCables exacting specifications. They are ... Silver Serpent Anniversary Edition Audio Interconnect Cable Overview. As one of ...
Tunnelbridge Distortionless Interconnect System : High end ...
www.lessloss.com/tunnelbridge-distortionless-interconnect-system-p-204...
The moment an audio signal enters an interconnect, its distortion is inevitable. ... why many rely on C and L specifications to gauge high-end cable performance.

Analog Interconnects - Moon Audio
www.moon-audio.com › Audio Cables
Moon Audio can customize analog interconnects for your hifi or high end audio gear, ... by our in house skilled artisans individually to your specifications.

 

[U102324]

If you all can hear differences, then explain which are the better sounding and not so good sounding differences.

Would it be sensible if you bought a CD and it does not sound so good, replacing it with a CD that uses different cables and equipment in the recording process hoping that it would sound different better. What if it sounds different worse. Is it the fault of the recording engineer not paying attention to the cable specs or is it just that he hears something different than you?

 

[rowuk]

I often think about the requirements to call something better or worse. For me, high end requires stuff that most audiophiles simply do not have: low distortion output where the most musical energy is needed: below 300Hz. All of these open back and direct radiator speakers will simply not have the "resolution" down deep. If we have "challenged" LF, how good can the judgement be for cables, amps, even recordings?

A 6" or 8" woofer is simply not capable of clean reproduction of low bass - but that is required for highest quality reproduction of any music in an acoustical environment. Increasing power of course can make the amount of LF pressure higher, and perhaps even give some semblance of flat frequency response, but of low enough distortion to judge an amp or cable? I think not.

To answer the original posters question: Consideration of a SET or SEP amp is dependent on the speaker system. If you don't have the efficiency and resolution, forget it!

 

[wicked1]

If you all can hear differences, then explain which are the better sounding and not so good sounding differences.

Would it be sensible if you bought a CD and it does not sound so good, replacing it with a CD that uses different cables and equipment in the recording process hoping that it would sound different better. What if it sounds different worse. Is it the fault of the recording engineer not paying attention to the cable specs or is it just that he hears something different than you?

The recording industry is certainly not w/out its faults, and yes, you can tell the difference of recording equipment on different records/cd's.
Some "professional" sound engineers are clearly deaf, or simply don't have what it takes to hear distortion. I've got some modern rock recordings where the levels are clearly clipping and distorting.. and I don't think it's the band doing something intentional. (just random getting too loud and ugly distortion.. (broken social scene is the band I'm thinking of at this moment.. last couple albums just sound bad))
And, listen to something like classic Jazz.. Miles Davis maybe, and compare the recordings he made w/ various record labels, and the same song recorded in different years. Some are certainly better than others.

 

[Miles Prower]

The recording industry is certainly not w/out its faults, and yes, you can tell the difference of recording equipment on different records/cd's.
Some "professional" sound engineers are clearly deaf, or simply don't have what it takes to hear distortion. I've got some modern rock recordings where the levels are clearly clipping and distorting.. and I don't think it's the band doing something intentional. (just random getting too loud and ugly distortion.. (broken social scene is the band I'm thinking of at this moment.. last couple albums just sound bad))
And, listen to something like classic Jazz.. Miles Davis maybe, and compare the recordings he made w/ various record labels, and the same song recorded in different years. Some are certainly better than others.

You can't always blame the sound engineers. They have to give the boss what he wants. These days, what the labels want is loud, loud, loud! All too many CDs have unrealistic levels of compression and so the average stays close to the peaks. That may do for car audio where the recording has to compete with road noise, or artists on compilation CDs to get more attention. It does nothing for sonic quality, but when did they ever care about that anyway?

Early CDs tend to sound "off" when compared to the vinyl versions. That's understandable since it took some time to learn how to mix masters for the new format.

 

[Evenharmonics]

First page of hits from your search(and no, this isn't the only page I looked at). This is all that would fit in a post. Only thing that looks like an official, independent spec is the S/PDIF one. But that's a digital format:

You didn't see anything other than that? If so, then it's either your internet server is doing something to filter certain info or you are unable to see what's on the screen. In either case, you've got a problem to overcome. Otherwise you are falling behind.

 

[Dave2]

In either case, you've got a problem to overcome.

Nah. Think I've put in a reasonable effort here. That and the fact that it would take you the whole of 35 seconds to do the search and copy/paste the link into a reply here. If that's too much trouble for you, I don't see why I should put in more effort.

 

[robertguerrieri]

hi
for whats its worth I have owned jadis 100watt amps , marantz 2,5.8b , mcintosh 30,60,240,75's
and after 40 years of throwing money at this addiction .I finally ended up with a pair of one off 2a3 single tube mono blocks . a 6c5 driving a 12b4 into a single 2a3 with huge did I say HUGE out of production Electra-Print output transformers (like 9 pound each Huge)the sound is breathtaking ..... but now comes the question ? how many thousands will I need to spend on speakers . Currently I am using a set of 5 1/4 " woofers and a 1" silk dome in a back loaded cab.the tannoys were great but now gone . any ideas ? for a good full range set up ?I was going to go with field coil 15"drivers but will need a sub and god do I hate subs .

 

[Ceglar]

This thread is utterly hilarious

quite pythonesque at times...

Which part did you find most amusing?

 

[TheGimp]

Unfortunately I'm on the "can't find a spec" end of this discussion.

The link Evenharmonics posted gives different results depending on which computer I am on.

And none of the searches provides a good set of specifications for what an RCA/Cinch/Phono audio cable is.

I think know what it is supposed to be, but finding a single unified specification is just about impossible.

The closest one can get is to use the S/PDIF cable specification, which is for a digital interconnect version.

So, can anyone post a specific link to a document on a specific web site that we can agree upon to define an RCA/Phono/Cinch interconnect cable for analog audio signals?

 

[Tattoo]

@ everyone who is to lazy to do some searching:

DF96 was spot on: A cable is just a capacitor to ground. The output must be capable to drive it and the capacitance should be low enough so the signal is not attenuated in the audio band.
This is not rocket science and can be found in every book about circuit theory.
Get off your gluteus maximus!

 

[DF96]

And none of the searches provides a good set of specifications for what an RCA/Cinch/Phono audio cable is.

I think know what it is supposed to be, but finding a single unified specification is just about impossible.

Does the failure to find a spec for a piece of wire tell us something? It certainly tells me something!

The closest one can get is to use the S/PDIF cable specification, which is for a digital interconnect version.

S/PDIF is something quite different. It tells us absolutely nothing about analogue audio interconnects.

 

[Evenharmonics]

I don't see why I should put in more effort.

I thought you are the one who wanted to know about audio cable.
Lets look at how you arrived to this point:

And is there an industry standard spec for RCA patch cables, other than the connectors fit and the conductors are connected?

BTW, followed your link. Didn't see anything like an IEEE or AES standard. Only various manufacturers spec'ing their stuff. Can you give a specific link to a standard?

Come on man. You gotta give me more than that. I'm not asking for a research project here. Just a few words that will help me to find the link you're referring to.

First page of hits from your search(and no, this isn't the only page I looked at). This is all that would fit in a post. Only thing that looks like an official, independent spec is the S/PDIF one. But that's a digital format:

S/PDIF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/?title=S/PDIF
Wikipedia
... Format) is a type of digital audio interconnect cable used in consumer audio ... a set of physical layer specifications for carrying digital audio signals between ...

Despite your speed, you are moving forward at least. You don't need my help.

 

[djupdal]

The link Evenharmonics posted gives different results depending on which computer I am on.

Google personalizes the results, they show different things to different users depending on previous search history, location etc.

 

[DF96]

Google provides a personal universe for everyone, so in time we could find that 'flat earth engineer' and 'true believer' types each have their own non-overlapping search results. That could make discussions interesting!

 

[freddi]

I've got crappy hearing and things that didn't measure much different sounded different - some of it may be small shifts in balance. An Alps pot vs a stepped attenuator vs an op amp line stage with electrolytic caps all seemed to sound different. For what little its worth I think I like simple single ended RIAA transistor phono amps better than those executed with op-amp chips.