Yeah, well, good luck with that. 🙄 The room is half the system.
Who? What people? Is this a strawman argument? The room does make a big difference. Some rooms are good, many are bad. If you like what you have, then why worry about treatments?
Well, #47 was too short and it is causing misunderstanding, sorry.
I said room treatment is mandatory because the room is not linear. I just meant to say room treatment is absolutely the first thing to consider if someone is searching for linear listening experience. If you're fine with non-linear response, you don't need it of course. Everyone has different preference. Many Audiophiles and Vinylphiles actually prefer non-linear response such as single ended tube amps, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. I was even agreeing with adding digital reverb in some cases in the past.
I said room treatment is mandatory because the room is not linear. I just meant to say room treatment is absolutely the first thing to consider if someone is searching for linear listening experience. If you're fine with non-linear response, you don't need it of course. Everyone has different preference. Many Audiophiles and Vinylphiles actually prefer non-linear response such as single ended tube amps, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. I was even agreeing with adding digital reverb in some cases in the past.
There have been various arguments made for adding room treatments, but I've never heard that they somehow make everything linear and therefore result in a linear listening experience. Perhaps you can elaborate on that idea.
It is easy to end up not seeing the whole because a single statement dominates your thinking. Break down the statement from Toole and you will see that his position is not quite that simple. He says that side wall reflections flatter certain recordings, this is widely accepted and easy to demonstrate. Early reflections that come from a lateral position are know to increase ASW apparent source width, this is something many people like. So in that specific circumstance not treating the sidewalls can be preferred. Treating side walls or not would produce a quite apparent change, for some it may be worse for some better. This is preference not lack of difference.
Sidewalls are a separate case from other forms of room treatment as they elicit a strong preference either way. Whether a room could benefit from treatment in some form would depend a lot on the shape and size of it, the furniture and other items in it etc. etc. Many ordinary items perform similar functions to room treatment products. Couches and seating can act as absorbers, bookcases as diffusors, large furniture pieces as reflectors.
Toole is proponent of multichannel, having separate speakers deliver the sound from different directions works similarly to nearfield listening in that the direct sound dominates more. I think he gives a balanced view overall in the 3rd edition but reading any one section in isolation might not give the same impression.
In my own current room I get something of a natural Haas kicker that comes in around 25 to 30ms which is due to the open plan layout and door to the back of the listening position letting me hear delayed sound from the speakers appear from behind me. I have looked over my shoulder a few times with certain tracks as it sounded like someone was behind me.
Controlling early decay times and getting a strong diffusive tail from the rear are known to have psychoacoustic benefits and these can be difficult to achieve without comprehensive room treatment. Just like concert halls, home rooms can be good or bad or anywhere in between, once you have heard a good hall you would likely seek it out again even though you may enjoy the performances in all.
Not necessarily. I've always been in the Geddes camp on this issue, and from what I hear Floyd has softened his position towards this too, in later years.
I hope Plasnu won't put a spell on me to reveal an hidden secret: he is a ( maybe former) pro into studio.
In studio design ( acoustic) we face an issue which doesn't exist in entertainment side of things which is called 'translation'.
We want our work to sound everywhere the same as where we have tracked/mixed/ mastered. It was soon discovered there was huge difference between facility.
Maybe it was related to loudspeakers? It seemed it was not this an issue ( even if you sometime can feel on what it's been mixed/recorded) so the next logical step was the room...
From there measurement analysis and a lot of math ( or sometime only intuition...) brought a whole new field in acoustic: studio design.
This translate thing is what Plasnu call 'linear' in my understanding.
So from there if you have been involved into that things you know every room needs some treatments ( in a pro context and if you want this kind of rendering).
Does this makes room treatments mandatory? Well no, you are on the entertainment side of things.
What matter is you to enjoy your listening experience.
W.Parham (Pi Speaker) approach is another one perfectly valid approach which doesn't require this much room treatments (in the first half of the room at least ):
https://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf
There is similarity and difference with E.Geddes approach, but both ( like most serious approach) gives an holistic approach including a specific set of loudspeakers, placement, room size,...
And to me this is what makes misconception and misunderstanding in this kind of discussion.
An approach to issues cannot be a mix and match of what can be seen on some pictures of studio ( which are ALL treated but with huge difference between how it is done and by who), it have to follow some logic to the approach. And to cure issues present in room not in mind ( why measurements is so much important).
This can be a huge work. And nothing garanty you you won't fail. It will definitely change the way the room look, even how you use it ( the room).
So i understand this makes people think about it before commitment.
That said i insist on being curious about it ( acoustic of auditorium/control room/room meant for playback) as it'll brings you understanding on some parameters for your loudspeakers ( directivity, location, etc,etc,...).
Both fields influence each other and there was some huge progression since the 60's/70's about what matter or not, trends in rendering, size of room,...
Taking an historically based view on this evolutions give interesting insight and might help you find what to do or not for your own pleasure.
https://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf
There is similarity and difference with E.Geddes approach, but both ( like most serious approach) gives an holistic approach including a specific set of loudspeakers, placement, room size,...
And to me this is what makes misconception and misunderstanding in this kind of discussion.
An approach to issues cannot be a mix and match of what can be seen on some pictures of studio ( which are ALL treated but with huge difference between how it is done and by who), it have to follow some logic to the approach. And to cure issues present in room not in mind ( why measurements is so much important).
This can be a huge work. And nothing garanty you you won't fail. It will definitely change the way the room look, even how you use it ( the room).
So i understand this makes people think about it before commitment.
That said i insist on being curious about it ( acoustic of auditorium/control room/room meant for playback) as it'll brings you understanding on some parameters for your loudspeakers ( directivity, location, etc,etc,...).
Both fields influence each other and there was some huge progression since the 60's/70's about what matter or not, trends in rendering, size of room,...
Taking an historically based view on this evolutions give interesting insight and might help you find what to do or not for your own pleasure.
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Not in my experience if you mean what we now call room treatments. It depends on the room the speakers and the person. I have multiple set-ups and only use "room treatments" in one of them. I am an older guy and when I started this hobby room treatments for home didn't exist. I was placement, listening position and using room furnishings, rugs and drapes not acoustic panels, reflectors or bass traps. So in some sense rugs, furniture, drapes and placement are helping address issues all be it in a rather crude way. Doesn't mean you can't get results your happy with without modern room treatments.
Rob 🙂
I would put it rather simple. If the room is comfortable to be in with a few friends - you know - talking and laughing, without annoyance of echo and that tiresome loudness effect that empty rooms have. Then you are mostly pretty well off, when it comes to playing audio - as long as the audio source is not bad - IMO that is smooth and even frequency response, both on and off axis.
It was properly better in the old days, because heavy furniture and big soft carpets seemed to be the trend back then, compared to some modern almost naked homes.
https://www.sfxmachine.com/docs/FixingThePhantomCenter.pdf
This is an interesting read, particularly David Clarkes' remarks re:room reflections.
This is an interesting read, particularly David Clarkes' remarks re:room reflections.
I see so many photos here and on other forums of sound systems in rooms with tile floors, bare walls and windows, little furniture. Spending so much time and effort on a Hi-Fi system in acoustics like that seems like a waste. How can it ever sound good?
The ceiling material of modern naked rooms is often acoustic material to avoid excessive reflection.
Our brains are very good at distinguishing the direct sound from the delayed reverberations. If you try to reduce room modes electronically, you're messing with the direct sound. So don't add EQ, add more furniture and curtains and bookcases. And periodically do a low frequency sine wave sweep to locate any mechanical buzzes and rattles.
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For decades, people purchased their audio equipment, radios, etc, and installed it in their homes to enjoy music.
And for the most part, this equipment was thoughtfully arranged within their living environment just like their furniture was.
And they enjoyed it, and were mostly satisfied with their purchase.
And they didn't obsess over furnishings, sound issues, and such.
Because that came later, recently, a treasure trove of money-making garbage from greedy manufacturers, manufacturing every kind of gadget they could win the public over with, spikes for speakers, anti-reflective panels, and equipment designed with features intent on catering to the ever-increasing "weakness to have" that they created.
In simple terms, they made people NUTS with all the junk.... rows of buttons to push, dials to amaze the senses, fancy lights to glow, specifications to draw the gullible to yank out their wallets.... the list is endless.
It's all a vicious merry-go-round designed to keep that cash flowing, and you, the consumer, dependent and eager for the next "miracle", once the older ones become boring and worn out.
Back when I was a kid
we walked to school.
And room treatment was carpet and drapes.
Having performed in numerous locations at high SPL in many rooms, venues
or practice rooms with live bands
Yes, you hang up blankets carpet or drapes
and a annoying room calms down very easily.
Then again for vocals or drums, or very much piano.
loud reflective rooms work well for recordings.
Ironical many vocal booths are filled with foam and are dead sounding
then in a final mix...they bath it in delay and reverb.
Basically makes it sound like singing in the shower.
go figure.
Then again I have been in all hard surface houses.
And just talking in the room or people walking sounds annoying.
But if you tossed in a live jazz piano player in the same house.
It would sound really good.
we walked to school.
And room treatment was carpet and drapes.
Having performed in numerous locations at high SPL in many rooms, venues
or practice rooms with live bands
Yes, you hang up blankets carpet or drapes
and a annoying room calms down very easily.
Then again for vocals or drums, or very much piano.
loud reflective rooms work well for recordings.
Ironical many vocal booths are filled with foam and are dead sounding
then in a final mix...they bath it in delay and reverb.
Basically makes it sound like singing in the shower.
go figure.
Then again I have been in all hard surface houses.
And just talking in the room or people walking sounds annoying.
But if you tossed in a live jazz piano player in the same house.
It would sound really good.
Room acoustics, like decor, are indeed easily changed to suit individual tastes, personal preferences.
However, some of this is due to society's marketing-driven fads, to the delight of big corporations, who generate these trends.
In the "old days" wall-to-wall carpeting was the thing to have, today, bare wood floors are the hot item.
Notice, this one thing also runs in step with floor-cleaning products, and the promotion of flooring itself.
The subliminal mind is coached by corporations to generate revenue.
You're not absolutely free to live the way you fundamentally want to, because the Powers Of Suggestion and curiosity are stirring your thoughts and/or desires.... the human brain and its ability to be maneuvered, excited, are at the mercy of marketing, and much like a disease, spread widely by current ideas and fads.
Look at any era of the past - for instance the Disco Era - the marketing of bellbottom clothing, music, styles.
You were surrounded, taken by it all, and likely fell to the "beat" of it.
Mind you, not all of society did, but enough to be curious, enough to make corporations happy.
Bottom line: you have the so-called freedom to blaze your own paths, or join the hoardes of mass-manipulation.
However, some of this is due to society's marketing-driven fads, to the delight of big corporations, who generate these trends.
In the "old days" wall-to-wall carpeting was the thing to have, today, bare wood floors are the hot item.
Notice, this one thing also runs in step with floor-cleaning products, and the promotion of flooring itself.
The subliminal mind is coached by corporations to generate revenue.
You're not absolutely free to live the way you fundamentally want to, because the Powers Of Suggestion and curiosity are stirring your thoughts and/or desires.... the human brain and its ability to be maneuvered, excited, are at the mercy of marketing, and much like a disease, spread widely by current ideas and fads.
Look at any era of the past - for instance the Disco Era - the marketing of bellbottom clothing, music, styles.
You were surrounded, taken by it all, and likely fell to the "beat" of it.
Mind you, not all of society did, but enough to be curious, enough to make corporations happy.
Bottom line: you have the so-called freedom to blaze your own paths, or join the hoardes of mass-manipulation.