You can measure the woofer til it's blue in the face, but you are still going to end up with a bass coil and a bit of impedance correction on the bass!
I just had a dig in the archive:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...bookshelf-speakers.203461/page-3#post-6083131
That's a 94mm Morel CAT 298 tweeter, just like your MDT29. TBH, I prefer almost anything to fabric domes, but that's just me.
I was showing off with a fourth order tweeter circuit just for interest:
Third order is good too. It's a BBC butterworth idea and has a fuller sound IMO. The original metal SEAS 3/4" 19TAF/G circuit was this:
I mess around with these things to see what works, since a lot of people get all secretive on crossovers, which is plain annoying. People make out it's a dark mysterious art usually, though B&W supply schematics for all their models which always interest me.
I think this links to support:
https://www.bwgroupusa.com/
Crossovers are usually very simple bass coils and third order tweeter circuits. B&W often use Kevlar basses, which have some fierce breakup problems, and can sound harsh. I think my higher complexity circuits deals with some breakup better.
As it happens, B&W usually use 4 ohm metal tweeters. The Morel MDT29 has a rather large Fs impedance peak, and I suppose an attenuator might help deal with that.
I just had a dig in the archive:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...bookshelf-speakers.203461/page-3#post-6083131
That's a 94mm Morel CAT 298 tweeter, just like your MDT29. TBH, I prefer almost anything to fabric domes, but that's just me.
I was showing off with a fourth order tweeter circuit just for interest:
Third order is good too. It's a BBC butterworth idea and has a fuller sound IMO. The original metal SEAS 3/4" 19TAF/G circuit was this:
I mess around with these things to see what works, since a lot of people get all secretive on crossovers, which is plain annoying. People make out it's a dark mysterious art usually, though B&W supply schematics for all their models which always interest me.
I think this links to support:
https://www.bwgroupusa.com/
Crossovers are usually very simple bass coils and third order tweeter circuits. B&W often use Kevlar basses, which have some fierce breakup problems, and can sound harsh. I think my higher complexity circuits deals with some breakup better.
As it happens, B&W usually use 4 ohm metal tweeters. The Morel MDT29 has a rather large Fs impedance peak, and I suppose an attenuator might help deal with that.
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As history has brought us a lot of 8"-3/4" systems, I can understand your perseverance to recreate the original. 'Modern' (15 year old) insights though show us that the power to frequency response of such systems has a big flaw: you get a lot of sound power at about 3kHz (or a little higher, depending on the crossover), while the region between 1kHz and 3kHz shows a big drop in sound power.
Now that is less of a problem in well dampend listening environments, but in your average 'bright' (acoustically) living room, that leads to pronounced sound pressure levels in the listening spot at aforementioned 3kHz and up. These are generally not pleasant. But it is a matter of taste, like a lot of things in audio.
Now that is less of a problem in well dampend listening environments, but in your average 'bright' (acoustically) living room, that leads to pronounced sound pressure levels in the listening spot at aforementioned 3kHz and up. These are generally not pleasant. But it is a matter of taste, like a lot of things in audio.
This has always been a pleasant speaker to listen to, and it has been in several different rooms since I got them. Though I never cared to measure them.
I even brought two additional 2-way pairs to Brazil, for friends of mine who liked the sound of mine. They had both pairs been measured and checked by the manufacturer, my friend that recently passed away.
All the cone drivers of my friend speakers (5" mid, 8" mid-woofer and 10" woofer) were made in Argentina, each part carefully designed, measured and checked, following my friend's drivers specifications, every little detail was a result of his development. Pity I can't pass them on to you, because I don't have them here.
His brand sold thousands of his 2-way and 3-way speakers in Latin America, just at the time when importing high quality audio equipment imports were liberated in every country. So his speakers could be compared to the best if the best, and it was considered one of the small number of high end speakers.
I compare what he did to the hand made moving coil cartridges made in Japan, some very expensive and only known in hi-end circles.
In 2015 I tried to set a way to start selling his speaker brand in the USA, but he was adamant that the speakers were exported, already assembled, to other countries.
Unfortunately the amount of money we needed for such an enterprise, in a moment like this, where loudspeaker designers like Wilson or Joseph D'Appolito have to create affordable models to compete in the market, a new brand would take several years to get known and a good business to get into.
Well, anyway I told all this story to show that these speakers ARE special and comparable to the best made in the world and much better than most. Let's hope I can get to measure them as a small proof of that. They were designed to work with the simplest crossovers, as what crossovers did correct on other speakers, using higher order filtering and zobels, was corrected in the speaker construction design itself, in the parts design, in the mechanics.
Let's see what I can do.
I even brought two additional 2-way pairs to Brazil, for friends of mine who liked the sound of mine. They had both pairs been measured and checked by the manufacturer, my friend that recently passed away.
All the cone drivers of my friend speakers (5" mid, 8" mid-woofer and 10" woofer) were made in Argentina, each part carefully designed, measured and checked, following my friend's drivers specifications, every little detail was a result of his development. Pity I can't pass them on to you, because I don't have them here.
His brand sold thousands of his 2-way and 3-way speakers in Latin America, just at the time when importing high quality audio equipment imports were liberated in every country. So his speakers could be compared to the best if the best, and it was considered one of the small number of high end speakers.
I compare what he did to the hand made moving coil cartridges made in Japan, some very expensive and only known in hi-end circles.
In 2015 I tried to set a way to start selling his speaker brand in the USA, but he was adamant that the speakers were exported, already assembled, to other countries.
Unfortunately the amount of money we needed for such an enterprise, in a moment like this, where loudspeaker designers like Wilson or Joseph D'Appolito have to create affordable models to compete in the market, a new brand would take several years to get known and a good business to get into.
Well, anyway I told all this story to show that these speakers ARE special and comparable to the best made in the world and much better than most. Let's hope I can get to measure them as a small proof of that. They were designed to work with the simplest crossovers, as what crossovers did correct on other speakers, using higher order filtering and zobels, was corrected in the speaker construction design itself, in the parts design, in the mechanics.
Let's see what I can do.
Thanks for this insight.
I wouldn’t state Wilson produces ‘good’ loudspeakers, but as you don’t either, we don’t have to start that discussion. Be aware of the fact that a lot of so called high end isn‘t worth the trouble. Grossly overrated and overpriced, sure. But no real sound quality, at least not to me.
I wouldn’t state Wilson produces ‘good’ loudspeakers, but as you don’t either, we don’t have to start that discussion. Be aware of the fact that a lot of so called high end isn‘t worth the trouble. Grossly overrated and overpriced, sure. But no real sound quality, at least not to me.
You rarely know the name of the loudspeaker designers, because sometimes they are not the manufacturers.
Wilson did design some interesting speakers that did sound good, but were certainly overpriced. Never heard any of them myself, so I can't comment.
All designers used drivers built by the brands we already know, like Peerless, Scanspeak, Seas or Dynaudio, only they were not factory standard models, they were specially made following their specific specs. Unfortunately my friend was not that lucky to order a complete driver, and instead had to order the drivers different parts from different suppliers. And then assemble everything with his team of people.
Wilson did design some interesting speakers that did sound good, but were certainly overpriced. Never heard any of them myself, so I can't comment.
All designers used drivers built by the brands we already know, like Peerless, Scanspeak, Seas or Dynaudio, only they were not factory standard models, they were specially made following their specific specs. Unfortunately my friend was not that lucky to order a complete driver, and instead had to order the drivers different parts from different suppliers. And then assemble everything with his team of people.
“they were specially made following their specific specs”
Don‘t put too much weight on that. You get the cones, spiders and surrounds from Müller, the magnet assemblies and chassis from other suppliers, you might build the voice coil assembly yourself and assemble the lot. The specific specs likely don’t bring anything the “standard” drivers don’t offer, apart from cost-cutting (like a smaller magnet). The big brands and any other are quite willing to produce drivers on spec, when you order 500+.
And even the design of drive units is often in the hands of particular small R&D companies who aren‘t related to drive unit or complete speaker brands. Check Nedlab for instance. So don’t believe every claim of a loudspeaker brand. They often act on borrowed knowledge.
Don‘t put too much weight on that. You get the cones, spiders and surrounds from Müller, the magnet assemblies and chassis from other suppliers, you might build the voice coil assembly yourself and assemble the lot. The specific specs likely don’t bring anything the “standard” drivers don’t offer, apart from cost-cutting (like a smaller magnet). The big brands and any other are quite willing to produce drivers on spec, when you order 500+.
And even the design of drive units is often in the hands of particular small R&D companies who aren‘t related to drive unit or complete speaker brands. Check Nedlab for instance. So don’t believe every claim of a loudspeaker brand. They often act on borrowed knowledge.
Wow , System 7 knows his stuff !! Using (resonant) tank notches in the Xovers. I'm learning LLC SMPS tank theory now ... speaker L
is just like the SMPS primary. Wonder if the tank notch affects woofer back EMF ??
I do have my dayton 8" speakers with a too small 3/4" tweeter. Bass is fine , but Xover is too high. I might buy a pair of 1.125" fabric
domes with a 700hz Fc to crossover lower (@ <1400hz).
is just like the SMPS primary. Wonder if the tank notch affects woofer back EMF ??
I do have my dayton 8" speakers with a too small 3/4" tweeter. Bass is fine , but Xover is too high. I might buy a pair of 1.125" fabric
domes with a 700hz Fc to crossover lower (@ <1400hz).