Manufacturers' FR, which would have to be redrawn for the smaller box front, seem to suggest both speakers could work together with a simple 2nd degree crossover. Am I wrong?
Or is there a better 8" driver to use for that?
Or is there a better 8" driver to use for that?
If and only if you like the sound of such a speaker, those units will do fine. Be aware 8”-3/4”- designs have inherent flaws compared to what we know about loudspeaker appraisal.
IIRC, the 225W has great TSP for good bass in a compact ported cab, but it starts beaming quite early before a spikey response right after where you'd normally cross, so you'd have to cross very, very low to avoid problems.
I don't think it's the best choice for a 2-way. A small tweeter will make things more challenging, too.
Some other picks for a 2-way:
Seas CA22RNY, CA22RNX, maybe U22
Scan 22W 8534
Monacor SPH 220HQ
Visaton W200 / S
I don't think it's the best choice for a 2-way. A small tweeter will make things more challenging, too.
Some other picks for a 2-way:
Seas CA22RNY, CA22RNX, maybe U22
Scan 22W 8534
Monacor SPH 220HQ
Visaton W200 / S
The main one: directivity mismatch. You just can't get the on axis SPL and the sound power level right at the same time. Apart from that, an 8" doesn't do 2kHz very well. And a 3/4" doesn't do 2kHz very well. So where do you cross?
This SB doesn't seem to do bad at 2KHz.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...b-acoustics-sb21rdc-c000-4-ring-dome-tweeter/
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...b-acoustics-sb21rdc-c000-4-ring-dome-tweeter/
I had a speakerlab set of speakers, small towers, loaded with an 8-in and a 3/4 in and it sounded simply fabulous. Seems like you've picked high-end drivers there and I bet you could come up with a great design.
I've learned with a recently late friend of mine, who made very high quality speakers in Argentina, that the best marriage is between a 8" and a dome tweeter, not a 6.5". He was right... if you have the right 8", which is very hard to achieve.
His 2-way are the speakers I have been listening to for the past 30 years, and I was trying to convince him to sell his products in the USA and the world. They are fantastic, and he was gonna help me add a very low bass sub and change the tweeter for SB 1" dome ring. But I had to modify the front baffle to be able to insert the SB29.
Pity we didn't get to do it, and now I will try to use the SB21, experimenting different crossing points. I will have to start doing FR measurements, which I am not too familiar with.
As the original tweeter, which was a heavily modified Audax, had blown away some time ago, the only tweeter I found that fitted was a Morel MDT29, with a 94mm front plate.
Only two years ago my friend listened to my speakers, as I live in Rio de Janeiro, and he lived in Buenos Aires. At the time he said there was a "hole" in the speaker's sound. Now I see what he meant, looking at the MDT29's curve, which looks to be exactly the same as the MDT33, its "stronger brother".
http://www.madisound.com/loudspeaker_specifications/mdt 29.pdf
My guess is the SB21 might perform better, but I will have to measure both the SB21 and the 8" woofer.
His 2-way are the speakers I have been listening to for the past 30 years, and I was trying to convince him to sell his products in the USA and the world. They are fantastic, and he was gonna help me add a very low bass sub and change the tweeter for SB 1" dome ring. But I had to modify the front baffle to be able to insert the SB29.
Pity we didn't get to do it, and now I will try to use the SB21, experimenting different crossing points. I will have to start doing FR measurements, which I am not too familiar with.
As the original tweeter, which was a heavily modified Audax, had blown away some time ago, the only tweeter I found that fitted was a Morel MDT29, with a 94mm front plate.
Only two years ago my friend listened to my speakers, as I live in Rio de Janeiro, and he lived in Buenos Aires. At the time he said there was a "hole" in the speaker's sound. Now I see what he meant, looking at the MDT29's curve, which looks to be exactly the same as the MDT33, its "stronger brother".
http://www.madisound.com/loudspeaker_specifications/mdt 29.pdf
My guess is the SB21 might perform better, but I will have to measure both the SB21 and the 8" woofer.
I agree.
agreed as well.
but both issues may eventually be solved with a BIG waveguide.
see heissmann-acoustics, for example.
If you take SB29 tweeter and add wave guide, it can be used with NE225W-08 if high order filter is somewhere at 1-1,5 kHz when needed SPL is not high.
What does it mean adding a waveguide? What big waveguide would be? This is a closed box, was designed that way and will stay that way.
What I was curious with the NE225W or the Monacor, and still am, was to use them to design another box, also closed, and see how it would compare to my box.
What I was curious with the NE225W or the Monacor, and still am, was to use them to design another box, also closed, and see how it would compare to my box.
In reality there are design choices to be made.all speakers are a compromise. Build what you want, give it a go. There are plenty of 2 ways with 8 inch drivers out there. Trust the force.
You may find my experience of this sort of speaker helpful:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/restoring-monitor-audio-r300-bookshelf-speakers.203461/
I don't think the Vifa NE225-08 is a good choice here:
Too much breakup at around 3kHz for a simple crossover.
This sort of thing is easier:
http://www.seas.no/index.php?option...p-sl&catid=44:utv-prestige-woofers&Itemid=238
Less breakup with better-behaved cones, so sounds smoother.
Hence the vaguely similar SEAS Njord worked well on a simple bass coil:
Best Regards from Steve in Southsea, UK.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/restoring-monitor-audio-r300-bookshelf-speakers.203461/
I don't think the Vifa NE225-08 is a good choice here:
Too much breakup at around 3kHz for a simple crossover.
This sort of thing is easier:
http://www.seas.no/index.php?option...p-sl&catid=44:utv-prestige-woofers&Itemid=238
Less breakup with better-behaved cones, so sounds smoother.
Hence the vaguely similar SEAS Njord worked well on a simple bass coil:
Best Regards from Steve in Southsea, UK.
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There is a long thread here at diyaudio where user augerpro has done a detailed study of diy 3D printed/CNC'd waveguides. And in fact he has one for the SB21.
https://www.somasonus.net/sb-acoustics-sb21
end of the road for 7" or 8" is about 1,200 to 1,400 Hz
so as mentioned your looking at a larger diaphragm tweeter
around 1"1/8 with very large rear chamber and magnet to have Fs
of around 650 to 700 Hz to cross at 1,400 Hz
otherwise a 1" with waveguide allows a lower crossover point
since the waveguide will improve lower response of the tweeter
either way a 3rd order crossover is likely still needed to reduce
distortion crossing a tweeter so low.
agree a 8" 2 way is likely a good formula, one of my interests.
but the challenge is the low crossover point and tweeter that can
go so low.
so as mentioned your looking at a larger diaphragm tweeter
around 1"1/8 with very large rear chamber and magnet to have Fs
of around 650 to 700 Hz to cross at 1,400 Hz
otherwise a 1" with waveguide allows a lower crossover point
since the waveguide will improve lower response of the tweeter
either way a 3rd order crossover is likely still needed to reduce
distortion crossing a tweeter so low.
agree a 8" 2 way is likely a good formula, one of my interests.
but the challenge is the low crossover point and tweeter that can
go so low.
Completely agreed
So the waveguide is a horn? Do I have to build my own (which is impossible) or can I get it somewhere?
Where are those graphics?
Apparently not in the specific 8" that my late friend had designed. It goes higher and it goes lower, apparently, than most 8" you can buy. Many of those 8" used on commercial loudpeakers were specially made for the speakers in question, and are not available.
In the case of my friend he had every piece made separately and they were then assembled one by one by him. That was the case for every speaker he made: handcrafted.
There is plenty of speakers ON AXIS that go very high in frequency.
Once you move off axis, the response is mainly justified by the size of
the cone and the wavelengths of the sound leaving it.
Its the fundamental basics of creating HiFi systems and not having
" Holes" in the response
you cross over to a smaller driver, because larger drivers start beaming.
yah see the blue and green lines. Basically tells you where the story ends
and the next driver takes over.
As mentioned at 30 or 40 degrees its all over. and cone breakup distortion is more than obvious
at 3k. You need a tweeter that goes down to 1200 to 1400 Hz.
Resonate frequency needs to be 2x under that for low distortion. 600 to 700 Hz
Hence why more than one person
has mentioned a 3/4 inch tweeter is a great idea for high frequency. But it wont cross to a large
driver. Its why waveguides were also mentioned to help the low frequency response of the tweeter.
Resonate frequency of small tweeter is very high 1200 Hz to 1400 Hz . So they cross 2x above that.
2400 Hz to 3000 Hz for no distortion.
People are trying to give you the basics, to help your ideas work.
Once you move off axis, the response is mainly justified by the size of
the cone and the wavelengths of the sound leaving it.
Its the fundamental basics of creating HiFi systems and not having
" Holes" in the response
you cross over to a smaller driver, because larger drivers start beaming.
yah see the blue and green lines. Basically tells you where the story ends
and the next driver takes over.
As mentioned at 30 or 40 degrees its all over. and cone breakup distortion is more than obvious
at 3k. You need a tweeter that goes down to 1200 to 1400 Hz.
Resonate frequency needs to be 2x under that for low distortion. 600 to 700 Hz
Hence why more than one person
has mentioned a 3/4 inch tweeter is a great idea for high frequency. But it wont cross to a large
driver. Its why waveguides were also mentioned to help the low frequency response of the tweeter.
Resonate frequency of small tweeter is very high 1200 Hz to 1400 Hz . So they cross 2x above that.
2400 Hz to 3000 Hz for no distortion.
People are trying to give you the basics, to help your ideas work.
I understand what people are doing, and I do appreciate it. That's why I would be open to try a waveguide for the SBs, if I can get them somewhere.
I have two options for the tweeter: SB21 ring dome and the smallish SB29 ring dome.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...sb29rdcn-c000-4-neo-magnet-ring-dome-tweeter/
The latter I already have here, the SB21 are coming in around two weeks.
Let's forget about the NE225. I planned on getting it from AE, and I will not. Heavy speakers, like the Monacor or any 8" driver would be too costly to ship to Brazil, where I live.
I have two options for the tweeter: SB21 ring dome and the smallish SB29 ring dome.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...sb29rdcn-c000-4-neo-magnet-ring-dome-tweeter/
The latter I already have here, the SB21 are coming in around two weeks.
Let's forget about the NE225. I planned on getting it from AE, and I will not. Heavy speakers, like the Monacor or any 8" driver would be too costly to ship to Brazil, where I live.
Why I tried to help with a distributor in Brazil.
I wish I knew more. But Seemed logical since the Digikey warehouse seems to be in Brazil.
I gave you links to Visaton projects, at least for examples or inspiration
Ironical if any are suited. Digikey is the Distributor for Visaton.
So logic was , most those drivers are sitting in a warehouse rather close to you.
German manufacture, I use google translate to read. they have English site
Far as a 8" for bass, great idea , 3/4" tweet with actually no waveguide, Great idea.
The hole in the frequency response and pushing drivers trying to do it. not gonna work
WAW or woofer assisted wideband also a option, wideband can cross extremely low.
to a 8". We haven't even got to what is lost with full space and baffle step. So step by step
another inspiration could be Stella Light, crossover integration so simple. 1st order can be used.
Side firing woofer makes baffle very small. And 90 degree helps remove top end that a 1st order
cant normally do.
The 3" wideband fills the gap we are pointing out. You can actually add a 3/4" tweeter to the concept
since that is what a small dual ring would be very happy with. 3" speaker then tweet crossed at 4K
Small tweeter is for excellent high end off axis. Wont go low,
You dont have to use Visaton drivers, its a concept. The woofer you like, would work and peerless/Vifa
makes countless wideband drivers. Add the dual ring tweet and it would be a rather nice system.
I wish I knew more. But Seemed logical since the Digikey warehouse seems to be in Brazil.
I gave you links to Visaton projects, at least for examples or inspiration
Ironical if any are suited. Digikey is the Distributor for Visaton.
So logic was , most those drivers are sitting in a warehouse rather close to you.
German manufacture, I use google translate to read. they have English site
Far as a 8" for bass, great idea , 3/4" tweet with actually no waveguide, Great idea.
The hole in the frequency response and pushing drivers trying to do it. not gonna work
WAW or woofer assisted wideband also a option, wideband can cross extremely low.
to a 8". We haven't even got to what is lost with full space and baffle step. So step by step
another inspiration could be Stella Light, crossover integration so simple. 1st order can be used.
Side firing woofer makes baffle very small. And 90 degree helps remove top end that a 1st order
cant normally do.
The 3" wideband fills the gap we are pointing out. You can actually add a 3/4" tweeter to the concept
since that is what a small dual ring would be very happy with. 3" speaker then tweet crossed at 4K
Small tweeter is for excellent high end off axis. Wont go low,
You dont have to use Visaton drivers, its a concept. The woofer you like, would work and peerless/Vifa
makes countless wideband drivers. Add the dual ring tweet and it would be a rather nice system.