elaborate, please?
are you saying that if a (sub)-woofer enclosure was somehow levitated from any direct physical contact with rigid room boundaries (like for example in a grid-floored anechoic chamber), that there'd be no vibrations/sound?
There are those who disagree with you:IB subwoofer picture gallery page 1
Using the sheetrock to directly support a subwoofer would not be smart. Given proper support for the woofer (preferably, wooferS in opposed pairs so that the reaction forces cancel), the ceiling should support the low notes as well as the floor does.
Well, I'm not going to argue more about the bass issues...
I'd like to share my experience about the original topic. My answer is, YES, OB speakers are good for home theater.
Actually it depends. If you want deafening SPL + floor shaking bass all the time, then OB in reasonable size is not for you. Otherwise, OB is very good. I myself is perfectly satisfied by OB for both music and movie.
Say, why does everyone think HT=high SPL? Or admire that way? True, high SPL + high SQ can be the ultimate goal, but many people are very satisfied by modest speakers and modest SPL for most music most of the time, why not modest volume for movies, too?
I haven't been to cinema for quite a while. It's much more comfortable at home. The environment of a cinema is actually very noisy - air conditioning, rubbing of clothes/seat; carpet/shoes, squeals of seats, people are talking, coughing... all kinds of noises. The SPL setting of the audio system is partially fighting against these noises. So it need to be loud.
It's just too loud, awfully loud! It's so often the whisperings in the dialog expand to a ridiculous SPL. (Or maybe the mixing is also to blame.) The sounds in the movie lose their proper scale. People in the movie are always talking in a shouting volume. When those 'sound effects' come up, they tend to be deafening and distorted. At this stage I'm always wondering if the distortions are in the audio system or the overload of my ears. (Oh well, the audio systems in cinemas are seldom good enough. Noisy, grainy, colored, harsh, yuck!)
When it's clean and clear, I'm perfectly happy with much quieter level, and actually I don't miss anything in the movies. I like clean and deep bass, too, but don't need room shaking level all the time. Under proper scale, I got the whole picture and also the details. Good enough for me. Floor shaking effect is cool, but not what I mainly care about the movies. (Oh, BTW, my OB bass can shake the floor, too. They are measured flat to 20. Enough SPL capability for me, and the neighbors... )
Low level details, clean sound, images, large sound field... are all strong points of OB speakers. These characters are good for music, and also excellent for movies. Just do it.
😀
I'd like to share my experience about the original topic. My answer is, YES, OB speakers are good for home theater.
Actually it depends. If you want deafening SPL + floor shaking bass all the time, then OB in reasonable size is not for you. Otherwise, OB is very good. I myself is perfectly satisfied by OB for both music and movie.
Say, why does everyone think HT=high SPL? Or admire that way? True, high SPL + high SQ can be the ultimate goal, but many people are very satisfied by modest speakers and modest SPL for most music most of the time, why not modest volume for movies, too?
I haven't been to cinema for quite a while. It's much more comfortable at home. The environment of a cinema is actually very noisy - air conditioning, rubbing of clothes/seat; carpet/shoes, squeals of seats, people are talking, coughing... all kinds of noises. The SPL setting of the audio system is partially fighting against these noises. So it need to be loud.
It's just too loud, awfully loud! It's so often the whisperings in the dialog expand to a ridiculous SPL. (Or maybe the mixing is also to blame.) The sounds in the movie lose their proper scale. People in the movie are always talking in a shouting volume. When those 'sound effects' come up, they tend to be deafening and distorted. At this stage I'm always wondering if the distortions are in the audio system or the overload of my ears. (Oh well, the audio systems in cinemas are seldom good enough. Noisy, grainy, colored, harsh, yuck!)
When it's clean and clear, I'm perfectly happy with much quieter level, and actually I don't miss anything in the movies. I like clean and deep bass, too, but don't need room shaking level all the time. Under proper scale, I got the whole picture and also the details. Good enough for me. Floor shaking effect is cool, but not what I mainly care about the movies. (Oh, BTW, my OB bass can shake the floor, too. They are measured flat to 20. Enough SPL capability for me, and the neighbors... )
Low level details, clean sound, images, large sound field... are all strong points of OB speakers. These characters are good for music, and also excellent for movies. Just do it.
😀
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I don't know who Tom Danley is, and honestly don't care if where he puts sub-woofers. The optimal design is BEHIND the listening area, in the wall mounted on a plywood board fastened securely to the studs. If you take the same ceiling mounted sub-woofer and placed it the back wall, you'd be amazed at how low you'd turn it down.
Now, unless you absolutely love watching your ceiling vibrate until the nails come loose every few years, the wall is the best. Already have fixed a few, as I am a remodeler.
Now, unless you absolutely love watching your ceiling vibrate until the nails come loose every few years, the wall is the best. Already have fixed a few, as I am a remodeler.
and you attempt to address the subject of sub/woofer performance with authority and credibility?
the sonically optimal (and perhaps multiple) location(s) might well be away from room boundaries
if "properly" installed in a ceiling as per your suggestions, how would (only) that make a difference?
yes, I know that if not enclosed on the rear, the average ceiling/attic installation would approach an infinite baffle which would need to be considered when specifying the driver(s)
For many of the drivers of appropriate dimensions to qualify as "HT subs", I'd imagine custom construction (i.e. false walls) would likely be required to allow enough cavity volume with conventional 16" center 2x4 or even 2x6 stud framing.
OTOH, if ceiling mounted between lower floors of a building, the joists would likely be at least 8" or deeper, and certainly more well cross-braced and load-stressed than many of the internal walls.
If you elect to install subs inside any boundary/wall shared with other rooms, aren't you likely to share (i.e. lose) more energy with those spaces than if the woofers where inside the room?
(edit: add ) That would not be so much of an issue with many of the ceiling IB sub installations that lousymusician's post cited, but certainly could be in other situations.
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but, as CLS noted, let's discuss the primary topic of this thread. (i.e. OB for HT?)
full disclosure - after several attempts to "enjoy" the HT experience, I quite simply gave up on more than 2 channels -
not everyone can or wants to dedicate the space required, and in my own domestic situation, the room simply won't accommodate the full array of boxes and restricted furniture placement that a full surround system would entail
accordingly, my observations / ramblings are mostly theoretical
I've very much enjoyed the musicality of several (not all) OB or planar/dipole systems that I've heard over the years, but even with only 2 channels, the physical size and special placement considerations that many have & will discuss can be an impediment.
Add to that the number of discrete channels and specialized loudspeaker directivity requirements embodied in the latest generations of multi-channel theatrical soundtrack processing, and OB's could present some very interesting challenges.
full disclosure - after several attempts to "enjoy" the HT experience, I quite simply gave up on more than 2 channels -
not everyone can or wants to dedicate the space required, and in my own domestic situation, the room simply won't accommodate the full array of boxes and restricted furniture placement that a full surround system would entail
accordingly, my observations / ramblings are mostly theoretical
I've very much enjoyed the musicality of several (not all) OB or planar/dipole systems that I've heard over the years, but even with only 2 channels, the physical size and special placement considerations that many have & will discuss can be an impediment.
Add to that the number of discrete channels and specialized loudspeaker directivity requirements embodied in the latest generations of multi-channel theatrical soundtrack processing, and OB's could present some very interesting challenges.
ChrisB, obviously you read what you wanted, not what I wrote. Never did I say I was an "expert". The main thing I have done for the last 15 years is fix crappy installation of everything from toilets to home theater systems. I have been in construction/remodeling for 30 years. As I originally said, putting a sub-woofer in a ceiling is dumb. A sub-woofer has a job, and that is vibration. As you state, you gave up on more than two channels. I can take any room, even a bathroom and make it sound acoustically dynamic. I am not an "expert", it is just my job. And when I see someone creating what will become a problem, I speak up. As I say, just my job.
Dan, you're only half right. It's job is to move/vibrate AIR; not solid objects. Sound energy is moving air not your couch.
Dan, on any given day, even the best of us can be obtuse
pardon me if the preceding sounds a bit contradictory
putting the sub(s) where they integrate best with the particular room is the goal, and it's more than conceivable that the ceiling could work.
take another thorough look at the site link provided by lousymusician
As Italynstylion noted, the job of the "sub"woofer(s) is to move air, not structure, as I obviously inferred from your earlier post. Hopefully it/they will seamlessly integrate with the other multiple channels.
What I perhaps didn't explain clearly enough, was why I gave up on more than 2 channels for the audio portion of my video system.
1) Given no aesthetic limitations, it's not a monumental challenge to size enclosures and map appropriate locations for satisfactory to stunning multi-channel performance, in most rooms. However, I already have a "cave" for my computer and music system, while the TV in question resides in a room over which I have very limited design input.
2) Even when dedicated to the HT purpose, some rooms provide substantial challenges in terms of placement of 6-7 speakers + 1 or more sub enclosures. Staircases, multiple entry doors, picture windows, fireplaces, etc., get in the way; and the "acoustic solutions" can invoke a much higher price in terms of domestic tranquility than many folks are willing to bear .
3) None of the affordable multichannel equipment I auditioned in this room, or in several local showrooms exhibited the "natural" ease and transparency of my current modest 2 channel rigs. In other words, I can concentrate on the performance / storyline, rather than get distracted by frequently "super-sized" sound effects. If the story can't move me without the latter, I can lose interest.
Since this thread was posted in the Full-range speaker forum section, it's worthy to note that I've been in this hobby for over 40yrs, the first 3 decades of which were spent chasing the dragon of high powered, multi-way speaker systems. About 10yrs ago, I had an epiphany, which could be summarized as "less is more" - my current audio system consist of several low powered tube amps and single driver speakers (Fostex / Mark Audio), and my TV system is Motorola HD cable box/ Kingrex T20U amp/Fostex FE167E.
Mounting the subwoofers in a push-push configuration, such as:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
effectively cancels cabinet vibration. So your theory is moot. Yes, at times the reaction force caused by the woofer's throw does contribute to the sound in the form of tactile vibration. Mounting the woofers in phase and facing each other will cancel most of that vibration.
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