To Marce: good points. I am amazed at how small SMD stuff is. I think it's cool that caps and resistors and such still look like the prior generation, just much smaller! Replacing "big" components is about my limit. I've done some assemblies of kits but they had to be sent back to the manufacturer to work properly 
DIY Speakers (or anything) always looks better if a man is (1) competent and (2) has access to a cabinet and/or machine shop. For the rest of us there's Visa, no wait, a basic soldering kit and tools. I will probably attempt the Linkwitz Plutos but that is another board. Restoring Bose 901 (series 4-5) is easy (repair those rotten surrounds) but I figure I got back about 1/4 or 1/3 of money invested. I am recently rid of two of those abortions. I now enjoy my 4 901 "series II"; three rights and one left, but turn one upside down and it looks ok on the shelf. Also I have rarely read/never seen a pair of series I or II that had problems. Pretty good for something that is 30-40 years old. We shall see if they survive the Metallica test later :*)
To Whaleman: I Don't yet have the Behringer. On the plus side, the hum defect in the Sunfire 300x2 appears to have been a faulty RCA cable. Nice & quiet now. I will post how the new amp soundeth.
DIY Speakers (or anything) always looks better if a man is (1) competent and (2) has access to a cabinet and/or machine shop. For the rest of us there's Visa, no wait, a basic soldering kit and tools. I will probably attempt the Linkwitz Plutos but that is another board. Restoring Bose 901 (series 4-5) is easy (repair those rotten surrounds) but I figure I got back about 1/4 or 1/3 of money invested. I am recently rid of two of those abortions. I now enjoy my 4 901 "series II"; three rights and one left, but turn one upside down and it looks ok on the shelf. Also I have rarely read/never seen a pair of series I or II that had problems. Pretty good for something that is 30-40 years old. We shall see if they survive the Metallica test later :*)To Whaleman: I Don't yet have the Behringer. On the plus side, the hum defect in the Sunfire 300x2 appears to have been a faulty RCA cable. Nice & quiet now. I will post how the new amp soundeth.
After a couple of weeks with the NU3000, I can report that it sounds quite good with the two pair of 901 II's. No problems noted yet, even running with the fan removed. Of course I haven't pushed the amp as hard as it could go, but I can hit peaks well above 100 dB which is much louder than I usually listen. One of these days I may hook it up to my Magnepan 1.6 QR which are real pigs
Last edited:
DIY Cost
I agree with the original concept: DIY is far more expensive than a commercial mass market amp because we cannot get parts discounts like the mass market commercial amp makers can, and we cannot manufacture cases and connections like they can.
The problem with this is that it does not apply to "high end" amps- think of a Goldmund, for example. You can put $3K into a diy amp and get something just as good as a $6-10K Luxury audio unit. But then you put 3K into something that will never be able to be resold for over 1K, which has cosmetics looking far worse than than a high end unit. So who wins in the end? Depends.
For DIY you should do it for fun and to enjoy your creations, not for cost savings.
I agree with the original concept: DIY is far more expensive than a commercial mass market amp because we cannot get parts discounts like the mass market commercial amp makers can, and we cannot manufacture cases and connections like they can.
The problem with this is that it does not apply to "high end" amps- think of a Goldmund, for example. You can put $3K into a diy amp and get something just as good as a $6-10K Luxury audio unit. But then you put 3K into something that will never be able to be resold for over 1K, which has cosmetics looking far worse than than a high end unit. So who wins in the end? Depends.
For DIY you should do it for fun and to enjoy your creations, not for cost savings.
Or, from a sonic standpoint, one can spend $300 on a commercial amp and get something at least as good as a "$6-10K Luxury audio unit."
Probably even better, in truth, because quality control in so-called high-end audio is abysmal. One too often sees high-four-figure amps with unacceptably high channel imbalances and other glaring build quality/quality control flaws.
A Peavey, Crown, or Behringer amp will generally not exhibit such QC flaws.
sorry, but that is quite funny, as inflated as many high end price tags and claims can be, your assertion that one of these amps that are not built or marketted for quality AT ALL, but rather the number of watts they can claim they have and you and several others in here have only quoted power specs as some sort of measure of quality, thats laughable.
can diy beat the cheap *** china made amps for dollar per watt? no of course not, why would you try?
its not a new phenomenon that diy is higher cost than many segments of the market, particularly if you would rather not house your amp on a piece of wood, the economy of scale is not a recent thing. where the value comes in is being able to build something exactly how you want it and focus the spending in areas that are not often considered a value proposition for commercial interests. that and of course the joy of flicking the switch for the first time and having wondrous music fill the room.
can diy beat the cheap *** china made amps for dollar per watt? no of course not, why would you try?
its not a new phenomenon that diy is higher cost than many segments of the market, particularly if you would rather not house your amp on a piece of wood, the economy of scale is not a recent thing. where the value comes in is being able to build something exactly how you want it and focus the spending in areas that are not often considered a value proposition for commercial interests. that and of course the joy of flicking the switch for the first time and having wondrous music fill the room.
Last edited:
I did a quick test: I just disconnected the inputs (left them "open") and power up the amp. With ear to speaker, dead quiet! I do have minor hum with the input connected but this is coming from elsewhere. I have the same problem with the Sunfire "300x2" amp (which also is silent when it has its inputs open or shorted.) So electrically my "sample of one" says the NU3000 is dead quiet. Whether you want to go fanless is another question! After much flip-flopping, I have decided to buy another NU3000 for my 2nd system (the Magnepans). I had been considering two NU1000 (for biamping) but the NU3000 is more "watts per dollar" and I will have two NU3000 to biamp if I want. (Also still have two other amplifiers, so not like I am running out of them.) Of course, I have not listened to any other similar amp, but based on having one for a few weeks I recommend it.
Don't put words in my mouth that stem from your own misinterpretation. I never claimed that "high end" amps were marketed for "the number of watts they claim." In fact, they're generally marketed on claims of sonic superiority that range from merely illusory to outright false. But they're often very poorly designed, and assembled in a slapdash-at-best manner. (One could argue that it doesn't matter, because the average "high end" customer is too deaf to care.)
Alas, "high end" amps that are as poorly designed, crappily made, and misleadingly rated as this Theta unit are sadly common in the so-called high-end.
Having an overwrought case and an excessive price tag doesn't mean that an amp's any good.
Last edited:
A 3rd viewpoint?
Opinions can be good when they are informed. Many of the opinions here seem to be based on assumptions rather than actual listening experience. I'd like to try and gently steer this toward a viewpoint based on actual DIY experience rather than assumption and hearsay.
So here's a 3rd viewpoint, based on actual listening experience.
You can DIY improve many of these "el cheapo" stock units: by addition of a few tweaks, often as simple as beefing up the power supplies and replacing some lower quality capacitors with better quality ones, and come up with something that sounds and performs near the upper echelon of high-end quality.
As evidence, allow me to present the Behringer DEQ2496. In stock form, and when listening to its analog outputs, it's not a very fun experience. Barely tolerable sound, if that. Yuck. If the rest of Behringer's analog sections sound like that, it's no wonder Behringer gets a bad rap.
However, this same unit, when used with digital in and out, either optical or AES/EBU, sounds very good indeed, so transparent that from a whole club of golden ear audiophiles, not a single one was able to detect when the DEQ was in circuit. Even when they KNEW the DEQ was in, they still couldn't say it was worse. One even liked it better.
When we tried it with the analog, it sounded bad to nearly everyone.
So what's the point here? Well, the DEQ2496 in digital, stock form, is very, very good. The same unit's stock analog section actually sounds pretty bad. But a competent DIY'er can easily MODIFY the analog section.
I've done just that. I did a whole series of simple mods on these units, tweaking for musicality, and have been able to get the DEQ2496 analog performance to sound on a par with some VERY good $1K+ DACs.
Highly, highly musical performance.
The cost? $250 for a brand new DEQ on ebay, and less than $100 in parts. For a DIYer, that's a $350 unit that competes very evenly with most any $1K DAC, including the Eastern Electric, the Anedio and the Wyred DACs. (BTW, that's some TOUGH competition, hard to beat at any price.)
When you factor in that your DEQ2496 happens to include an astonishingly powerful and complete digital equalizer and DSP unit, you start moving into an astonishingly high QPR vs most any high end digital equalizer, even the ones costing $4K+.
It's a GREAT dac when modded.
It's a fantastic digital equalizer, as good as it gets.
It's good RTA with built-in pink noise generator.
It's a veritable swiss-army audio knife with amazing capabilities (delay, compressor, expander, panoramic width control, etc. etc. etc.
And did i mention it's a GREAT and very musical DAC when suitably modded?
All that for only $350 !! Whaaat??? For $350??? Yep!
You've got to try this! (It's so good I think there may be a market for it, and I've taken to offering this as a mod service for $200 parts and labor. OK, so then it goes for @ $450. Still cheap. And truly great value.).
So, as can be seen from this 3rd viewpoint, taking an existing platform and adding a few well chosen mods can really be a very cost effective solution.
It's entirely possible that similar improvements in sound quality could be derived from modding the Behringer class D amps. Before throwing the baby out with the bath water, may I suggest that modding some of these cheap amps may be a great way to get the best of both worlds? After all, look at what Saleen Motors can do with a Mustang... it becomes dang close to a supercar. Similar improvements are there for us audio DIYers.
So, my take on the OP's original topic: it doesn't have to be either DIY vs cheap commercial, it can be DIY + cheap commercial = inexpensive high end.
So rather than waste time debating the relative merits of "el junko" vs "el cheapo" class-D amps, I say go out and mod them. Which is what I've been doing with the HiFiMeDiy amps, with equally stellar results. These things flat out smoke most high end amps. More on this in a separate post at a later time, but a hint to the wise: them Hifimediy amps are pretty dang good even in stock form. $60 USD gets you a great 100W/ch into 4ohm amp.
Try this alternate path and save that 90% of the $$$. And then, if you still feel you need elaborate looking enclosures, you can rip the guts out and transplant'em. And you'll still wind up saving about 80% of what the fancy high end pieces cost, for equivalent performance.
Best Regards!
Opinions can be good when they are informed. Many of the opinions here seem to be based on assumptions rather than actual listening experience. I'd like to try and gently steer this toward a viewpoint based on actual DIY experience rather than assumption and hearsay.
So here's a 3rd viewpoint, based on actual listening experience.
You can DIY improve many of these "el cheapo" stock units: by addition of a few tweaks, often as simple as beefing up the power supplies and replacing some lower quality capacitors with better quality ones, and come up with something that sounds and performs near the upper echelon of high-end quality.
As evidence, allow me to present the Behringer DEQ2496. In stock form, and when listening to its analog outputs, it's not a very fun experience. Barely tolerable sound, if that. Yuck. If the rest of Behringer's analog sections sound like that, it's no wonder Behringer gets a bad rap.
However, this same unit, when used with digital in and out, either optical or AES/EBU, sounds very good indeed, so transparent that from a whole club of golden ear audiophiles, not a single one was able to detect when the DEQ was in circuit. Even when they KNEW the DEQ was in, they still couldn't say it was worse. One even liked it better.
When we tried it with the analog, it sounded bad to nearly everyone.
So what's the point here? Well, the DEQ2496 in digital, stock form, is very, very good. The same unit's stock analog section actually sounds pretty bad. But a competent DIY'er can easily MODIFY the analog section.
I've done just that. I did a whole series of simple mods on these units, tweaking for musicality, and have been able to get the DEQ2496 analog performance to sound on a par with some VERY good $1K+ DACs.
Highly, highly musical performance.
The cost? $250 for a brand new DEQ on ebay, and less than $100 in parts. For a DIYer, that's a $350 unit that competes very evenly with most any $1K DAC, including the Eastern Electric, the Anedio and the Wyred DACs. (BTW, that's some TOUGH competition, hard to beat at any price.)
When you factor in that your DEQ2496 happens to include an astonishingly powerful and complete digital equalizer and DSP unit, you start moving into an astonishingly high QPR vs most any high end digital equalizer, even the ones costing $4K+.
It's a GREAT dac when modded.
It's a fantastic digital equalizer, as good as it gets.
It's good RTA with built-in pink noise generator.
It's a veritable swiss-army audio knife with amazing capabilities (delay, compressor, expander, panoramic width control, etc. etc. etc.
And did i mention it's a GREAT and very musical DAC when suitably modded?
All that for only $350 !! Whaaat??? For $350??? Yep!
You've got to try this! (It's so good I think there may be a market for it, and I've taken to offering this as a mod service for $200 parts and labor. OK, so then it goes for @ $450. Still cheap. And truly great value.).
So, as can be seen from this 3rd viewpoint, taking an existing platform and adding a few well chosen mods can really be a very cost effective solution.
It's entirely possible that similar improvements in sound quality could be derived from modding the Behringer class D amps. Before throwing the baby out with the bath water, may I suggest that modding some of these cheap amps may be a great way to get the best of both worlds? After all, look at what Saleen Motors can do with a Mustang... it becomes dang close to a supercar. Similar improvements are there for us audio DIYers.
So, my take on the OP's original topic: it doesn't have to be either DIY vs cheap commercial, it can be DIY + cheap commercial = inexpensive high end.
So rather than waste time debating the relative merits of "el junko" vs "el cheapo" class-D amps, I say go out and mod them. Which is what I've been doing with the HiFiMeDiy amps, with equally stellar results. These things flat out smoke most high end amps. More on this in a separate post at a later time, but a hint to the wise: them Hifimediy amps are pretty dang good even in stock form. $60 USD gets you a great 100W/ch into 4ohm amp.
Try this alternate path and save that 90% of the $$$. And then, if you still feel you need elaborate looking enclosures, you can rip the guts out and transplant'em. And you'll still wind up saving about 80% of what the fancy high end pieces cost, for equivalent performance.
Best Regards!
Modded DEQ vs mini-dsp
Hey Noah, the answer might depend on this: stock or modded?
In stock form, IMO the analog outs from the mini-DSP are way better than the Behringer. However, the mods I'm doing to the Behringer bring it up to a level where it seems quite a bit nicer than the stock mini-DSP. I have not tried modding any mini-DSP units, they look a lot harder to do.
(For a good look into DEQ mods, do a search on Sendler, he's done lots of good work with this. It's a great place to start.) In my mods, I wanted to preserve as much functionality as possible, and found ways to to enhance the units without disabling any of the analog ins or outs; I'm doing a direct-out dac mod via some very high quality cap combinations. The only stock function that gets sacrificed is the MIDI-thru where I'm using that socket as the output for the modded analog out. The caps are expensive though, and that drives the cost way up.
Yes, one could perhaps save money and do it with less expensive caps, but then YMMV applies in full force... I've spent a LOT of time researching different cap combinations to get the best sonics, so for now I'll keep that the cook's secret, as I'd like to be able to sell some of my mods.
Of course, for those who don't believe caps make any difference, then it's all un-necessary anyway!
Regarding the digital sections: I found the mini-DSP a lot harder to use and requires programming via a computer, while the Behringer DEQ2496 functions are user accessible at all times, and it has tons of extra available features. This factor alone would make me vote for the Behringer, but when you add in the better analog sound when modded, I think it's by far the better option.
Now if you're looking at using active crossovers, then you would want to consider the Behringer DCX2496 vs Mini-DSP, and the additional cost of the DCX and 3x mods becomes a big factor. Tis a different kettle of fish ! In that situation, perhaps I would opt for mini-DSP at the lower end and move up to a DEQX at the upper end.
AMPS: I haven't tried any of the LJM IRS2092 boards due the need for higher voltages from the PS. I did evaluate some Hypex UcD 180's with the Hypex supplies, but so far, I've favored units based on the Tripath controller board, such as the Hifimediy. To these ears, they sound much more like music.
In the Tripath arena, I've come to prefer the hifimediy or Arjen Helder units that run well with a 24-30V single rail supply, because I've found that a good battery supply seems much better than almost any linear or smps that I've tried...and it's cheaper... it's a win on both counts!.... (The Sure boards also sound pretty good and they use the same chipsets, but they seem to run very, very hot, something there doesn't seem right...)
BTW, the PS quality seems to be one of the biggest contributors to the quality of the sound, especially with the Tripath implementations. Next I'll be looking into ways of incorporating battery based PS on the Behringer, but that needs +3.3V, +5V, +9V and +/- 15V DC... quite a shopping list! Maybe I'll leave that up to the experts like Vinnie at RedWine Audio, whose LiFePo4 battery supplies are probably the best sounding PS I've heard.
Hey Noah, the answer might depend on this: stock or modded?
In stock form, IMO the analog outs from the mini-DSP are way better than the Behringer. However, the mods I'm doing to the Behringer bring it up to a level where it seems quite a bit nicer than the stock mini-DSP. I have not tried modding any mini-DSP units, they look a lot harder to do.
(For a good look into DEQ mods, do a search on Sendler, he's done lots of good work with this. It's a great place to start.) In my mods, I wanted to preserve as much functionality as possible, and found ways to to enhance the units without disabling any of the analog ins or outs; I'm doing a direct-out dac mod via some very high quality cap combinations. The only stock function that gets sacrificed is the MIDI-thru where I'm using that socket as the output for the modded analog out. The caps are expensive though, and that drives the cost way up.
Yes, one could perhaps save money and do it with less expensive caps, but then YMMV applies in full force... I've spent a LOT of time researching different cap combinations to get the best sonics, so for now I'll keep that the cook's secret, as I'd like to be able to sell some of my mods.
Of course, for those who don't believe caps make any difference, then it's all un-necessary anyway!
Regarding the digital sections: I found the mini-DSP a lot harder to use and requires programming via a computer, while the Behringer DEQ2496 functions are user accessible at all times, and it has tons of extra available features. This factor alone would make me vote for the Behringer, but when you add in the better analog sound when modded, I think it's by far the better option.
Now if you're looking at using active crossovers, then you would want to consider the Behringer DCX2496 vs Mini-DSP, and the additional cost of the DCX and 3x mods becomes a big factor. Tis a different kettle of fish ! In that situation, perhaps I would opt for mini-DSP at the lower end and move up to a DEQX at the upper end.
AMPS: I haven't tried any of the LJM IRS2092 boards due the need for higher voltages from the PS. I did evaluate some Hypex UcD 180's with the Hypex supplies, but so far, I've favored units based on the Tripath controller board, such as the Hifimediy. To these ears, they sound much more like music.
In the Tripath arena, I've come to prefer the hifimediy or Arjen Helder units that run well with a 24-30V single rail supply, because I've found that a good battery supply seems much better than almost any linear or smps that I've tried...and it's cheaper... it's a win on both counts!.... (The Sure boards also sound pretty good and they use the same chipsets, but they seem to run very, very hot, something there doesn't seem right...)
BTW, the PS quality seems to be one of the biggest contributors to the quality of the sound, especially with the Tripath implementations. Next I'll be looking into ways of incorporating battery based PS on the Behringer, but that needs +3.3V, +5V, +9V and +/- 15V DC... quite a shopping list! Maybe I'll leave that up to the experts like Vinnie at RedWine Audio, whose LiFePo4 battery supplies are probably the best sounding PS I've heard.
On the DIY Class D Amplifier vs Behringer
Behringer EPQ304 is a 4 channel Class D 75W/4 ohms, 50W/8 ohms all channels driven. Perfect for Biamping. Cost?? $199.00USD for the whole thing. I can't build it for that. The 1U chassis is over 100 USD. If you have to go in there and tweek it a bit (and I hate tweeking things - I'd rather them work correctly when you buy them.) to improve the sound quality, that makes sense to me.
I'd buy one before I'd build, if that's what I needed.
Behringer EPQ304 is a 4 channel Class D 75W/4 ohms, 50W/8 ohms all channels driven. Perfect for Biamping. Cost?? $199.00USD for the whole thing. I can't build it for that. The 1U chassis is over 100 USD. If you have to go in there and tweek it a bit (and I hate tweeking things - I'd rather them work correctly when you buy them.) to improve the sound quality, that makes sense to me.
I'd buy one before I'd build, if that's what I needed.
Given the other Behringer stuff i have heard, i would be pleasantly surprised if it sounded better than poor (i haven't heard any of their amps)... Sure its cheap, but could you actually listen to it?
dave
Interesting. I am a happy (ignorant?) user of a DEQ2496 for several years now, all stock, and can't detect anything wrong with the ADC/DAC (I usually use it as an analog EQ) ... I may look at those mods nonetheless. After all, I'm the man with the $50 DAC with the $100 output capacitors right now
I considered one of the iNuke amps. I found a Youtube clip of a guy installing a few of them into a studio.
I'm having trouble finding the clip again now. He was surprised at how much really bad audible distortion they produced.
It turned out that the distortion levels were very low only if you didn't use the volume controls on the front of the amps. If you had the inbuilt controls turned all the way up the amps worked well. If you reduced the level the high distortion kicked in.
It's like Behringer got close to producing a good amp for a very low cost but just couldn't quite get it right.
It can't help their reputation since many people would hear the high distortion and never realise that it went away if you didn't use the volume knobs on the front of the unit.
Edit... maybe it wasn't an iNuke but one of their older pro amps. Still can't find the clip using search for iNuke.
I'm having trouble finding the clip again now. He was surprised at how much really bad audible distortion they produced.
It turned out that the distortion levels were very low only if you didn't use the volume controls on the front of the amps. If you had the inbuilt controls turned all the way up the amps worked well. If you reduced the level the high distortion kicked in.
It's like Behringer got close to producing a good amp for a very low cost but just couldn't quite get it right.
It can't help their reputation since many people would hear the high distortion and never realise that it went away if you didn't use the volume knobs on the front of the unit.
Edit... maybe it wasn't an iNuke but one of their older pro amps. Still can't find the clip using search for iNuke.
Last edited:
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
yep, I discovered this only once I'd committed myself, now a few amps later I still find it a hassle at times but unfortunately I'm now addicted
Cheapest option is to buy a used amp from fleaBay or the local rag.
And you may also find that the sound quality depends more on your speakers than your amplifier....
Just try it!
One way of looking at this is that for some the DEQ2496 will continue to sound OK... until the day when they hear a decent mod of it, such as the simple ones I've done with direct dac output and really good caps... and then they wonder why they didn't mod sooner!
It's once that we get to hear the difference that it becomes difficult - nay, even painful - to go back to the un-modded version.
The AKM 4393 DAC in the Behringer is really a very nice piece, and deserves better than the POS circuitry Behringer appended after it. And even tho most of the PS for this could stand to be improved, the section that feeds the DAC isn't too horribly bad, and so a simple mod can work wonders.
It's about the same quality difference as found when comparing run-of-the-mill commercial stuff to a really good high end piece. Perhaps even better, because it can be VERY satisfying to get this kind of performance so cheaply!
Great big bang for the buck, and a truly huge sonic benefit with very little effort. I like that formula!
Interesting. I am a happy (ignorant?) user of a DEQ2496 for several years now, all stock, and can't detect anything wrong with the ADC/DAC (I usually use it as an analog EQ) ... I may look at those mods nonetheless. After all, I'm the man with the $50 DAC with the $100 output capacitors right now
One way of looking at this is that for some the DEQ2496 will continue to sound OK... until the day when they hear a decent mod of it, such as the simple ones I've done with direct dac output and really good caps... and then they wonder why they didn't mod sooner!
It's once that we get to hear the difference that it becomes difficult - nay, even painful - to go back to the un-modded version.
The AKM 4393 DAC in the Behringer is really a very nice piece, and deserves better than the POS circuitry Behringer appended after it. And even tho most of the PS for this could stand to be improved, the section that feeds the DAC isn't too horribly bad, and so a simple mod can work wonders.
It's about the same quality difference as found when comparing run-of-the-mill commercial stuff to a really good high end piece. Perhaps even better, because it can be VERY satisfying to get this kind of performance so cheaply!
Great big bang for the buck, and a truly huge sonic benefit with very little effort. I like that formula!
