I came across an auction of a NOS T-330 in ebay. It ended at over $400. Can someone educate me why it is considered this good for such a price?
Thanks,
Thanks,
Because it's rare and desirable for collectors. It's very good iron, but no better (and in many respects not as good) as something that can be bought new for less than half that price. But the object itself is a piece of history, so it has worth to many beyond the question of its actual performance.
I've built amplifiers around the Acro TO-330 (and TO-300 which I preferred) which imo should only be used exactly as intended - in UL connection. The leakage inductance is not as low as you would expect and it is a lousy performer in triode connection - which is what I preferred by that point in time. (Poor HF bandwidth)
SY is right, there are definitely better transformers out there, and probably for a little less money.
SY is right, there are definitely better transformers out there, and probably for a little less money.
Hi Kevin, Sy,
Excellent comment. I am for the performance not the collectors value 🙂
I have a pair of Eico HF-52's which is essentially integrated HF-50
with a sucky preamp section. I am thinking about to restore them as 2 HF-50 monoblocks which are pretty much the same as the bigger brother HF-60 with the exception of the T-330 OPT's. That's the reason why I asked the question because looking at the ebay prices, the HF-60 going price is consistently 250+ above the HF-50 which kind of puzzling me how much the Acrosound is better than the Chicago iron.
Just to get a feel of how modern iron compare to these classics, how close is Edcor CXPP60-MS-4.2K to the T-330 in performance? Maybe I should really ditch the old Eico's and build a completely new pair of monoblocks.
Excellent comment. I am for the performance not the collectors value 🙂
I have a pair of Eico HF-52's which is essentially integrated HF-50
with a sucky preamp section. I am thinking about to restore them as 2 HF-50 monoblocks which are pretty much the same as the bigger brother HF-60 with the exception of the T-330 OPT's. That's the reason why I asked the question because looking at the ebay prices, the HF-60 going price is consistently 250+ above the HF-50 which kind of puzzling me how much the Acrosound is better than the Chicago iron.
Just to get a feel of how modern iron compare to these classics, how close is Edcor CXPP60-MS-4.2K to the T-330 in performance? Maybe I should really ditch the old Eico's and build a completely new pair of monoblocks.
hey-Hey!!!,
The Chicago iron in the HF50 is better than the TO-330. IIRC it's number goes 322007. I've seen folks making nice stuff with the 330, example being DejaVu audio's PP 45 amps around that transformer. In my own testing the 330 was definately second rate, even with circuits it is supposedly 'made for'. I abandoned the idea of taking it apart to make copies of it.
cheers,
Douglas
The Chicago iron in the HF50 is better than the TO-330. IIRC it's number goes 322007. I've seen folks making nice stuff with the 330, example being DejaVu audio's PP 45 amps around that transformer. In my own testing the 330 was definately second rate, even with circuits it is supposedly 'made for'. I abandoned the idea of taking it apart to make copies of it.
cheers,
Douglas
pchw said:
Bandersnatch said:
Keep those old eico output transformers, they really do perform well, and I thought just a bit better in most situations than the TO-330 in the HF-60. You could do far worse than just to make your HF-52s into a pair of stock Eico HF-50 - this was certainly one of the very best amplifiers of its era, and with modern parts is bettered by very few in my experience.
Wow, this is a prime example of perception vs reality!!!
You guys really open my eyes. Otherwise, I wouldn't know the T-330's are over-hyped in terms of "price performance) and the Chicago irons are quite good even by the veteran's standard.
Douglas, did you mean 32007? The OPT has this parts number etched in the case.
You guys really open my eyes. Otherwise, I wouldn't know the T-330's are over-hyped in terms of "price performance) and the Chicago irons are quite good even by the veteran's standard.
Douglas, did you mean 32007? The OPT has this parts number etched in the case.
pchw said:
hey-Hey!!!,
I suppose I did. I guess that time added another '2' to that file...🙂 I've got that one on my list of outputs to unwind and examine. I think every one of those HF50's I've seen came with really early tubes; xf1 EL34 and metal based GZ34...sweet!
cheers,
Douglas
LOL, one of the HF-52's came with those Mullard EL34. I thought I got a treasure. It turned out hey barely moved the meter of the tube tester. I never saw any tube weaker than that 🙂Bandersnatch said:
hey-Hey!!!,
I guess I got lucky then. All mine tested like a new valve. IIRC I got $1k1 for those amps and tubes back in '01. Man-oh-man did I ever need the money. I do wish I had the outputs now, I'd be unwinding them to discover how they were made and to make more. I think I know where a single '52 is though...🙂
cheers,
Douglas
I guess I got lucky then. All mine tested like a new valve. IIRC I got $1k1 for those amps and tubes back in '01. Man-oh-man did I ever need the money. I do wish I had the outputs now, I'd be unwinding them to discover how they were made and to make more. I think I know where a single '52 is though...🙂
cheers,
Douglas
I know this topic is about a week old but I couldn't resist.
My dad bought that TO-330 so that he could build a matching mono block to the one he built 50 years ago (1954). The circuit is the "Golden Ears Lab" design by Joseph Marshal and is an extension of the original Williamson work by Hafler and Keroes. It has a fairly complicated 4 stage driver section that powers a pair of 6650 output tubes in push-pull or 4 in push-pull parallel. He always runs them ultra-linear as I believe the transformers were designed for that use.
I have been looking for a decent TO-330 for him for about 3 years and noticed curiously that most of them (from EBay) are purchased by someone in Japan with deep pockets. I was surprised that we were able to get that one for $409.
* The most desirable feature of this particular one is that it has never been used and comes with the original box & paperwork. It's like the one he bought in 1954 for $25 except that it cost about 16x the 1954 price
As far as sound goes, I haven't heard his old set for quite some time. When he built it stereo sets were not widely available so who needed 2 amps. By the time I arrived he was into 6L6 amps with a little less power but 2 speakers. Also ultra-linear using TO-300's.
I can say definitively that some of the new iron sucks. Some manufacturers even sell the same model numbers that were available back in the day but with about 1/3 of the iron. I like the look of the Dynaclones though.
My setup consists of a pair of the "Golden Ear" Williamson amp with Dynaco A-430's. Each with a apir of EL34's. I may put in a second set of outputs just for overkill.
I do have a question though... What new output transformer would anyone suggest in place of the TO-330 that costs half the price and sounds better?
Cheers,
Andrew
My dad bought that TO-330 so that he could build a matching mono block to the one he built 50 years ago (1954). The circuit is the "Golden Ears Lab" design by Joseph Marshal and is an extension of the original Williamson work by Hafler and Keroes. It has a fairly complicated 4 stage driver section that powers a pair of 6650 output tubes in push-pull or 4 in push-pull parallel. He always runs them ultra-linear as I believe the transformers were designed for that use.
I have been looking for a decent TO-330 for him for about 3 years and noticed curiously that most of them (from EBay) are purchased by someone in Japan with deep pockets. I was surprised that we were able to get that one for $409.
* The most desirable feature of this particular one is that it has never been used and comes with the original box & paperwork. It's like the one he bought in 1954 for $25 except that it cost about 16x the 1954 price
As far as sound goes, I haven't heard his old set for quite some time. When he built it stereo sets were not widely available so who needed 2 amps. By the time I arrived he was into 6L6 amps with a little less power but 2 speakers. Also ultra-linear using TO-300's.
I can say definitively that some of the new iron sucks. Some manufacturers even sell the same model numbers that were available back in the day but with about 1/3 of the iron. I like the look of the Dynaclones though.
My setup consists of a pair of the "Golden Ear" Williamson amp with Dynaco A-430's. Each with a apir of EL34's. I may put in a second set of outputs just for overkill.
I do have a question though... What new output transformer would anyone suggest in place of the TO-330 that costs half the price and sounds better?
Cheers,
Andrew
awasson said:
hey-Hey!!!,
I get old outputs reverse engineered. I usually start with a good one. Say one of the Peerless 20-20 or 20-20 plus, Chicago BO-series, or perhaps the UTC LS-line.
So you're looking for a good TX, ~4k a-a and of a fine design. I have a 5k a-a 50watt engineering sample( Stancor 8000-series ) awaiting an unwind. Similar items have cost ~$100 each off a modern NC winder/stacker. I also have a 5k 40W from the Peerless 20-20 Plus line ( S258Q)in a pair awaiting the same treatment. The Chicago 32007 from the Eico HF50 would be right up there, as would the Freed outputs from the Citation II and Peerless 16431 of the Heath W6( both ~3k2 a-a and near 100W).
If you do a clone of an old model, you have the opportunity to do things like modifying the number and count of the U-L tap locations for one. Increasing stack size for another, or perhaps building for a dual-pair C-Core of an exotic material like amorphous and/or high Nickel. You can also figure out where the cost saves were done, and fix those shortcommings, yes?
cheers,
Douglas
Sowters in the UK sells a transformer that's based on the Acrosound TO-350. They have it listed under classical amplifier. The band width on the original was 7Hz to 70K Hz. There's looks to roll off at about 80K.
http://www.sowter.co.uk/
Actually the bandwidth on the original TO-330 was even better at 10Hz to 100KHz.
Lar
http://www.sowter.co.uk/
Actually the bandwidth on the original TO-330 was even better at 10Hz to 100KHz.
Lar
Attachments
I'd start with Lundahl, Sowter, and James. There are certainly others. I haven't tried the Edcors yet, but I suspect that they'll do fine as well, and for much less than half the price.
diamondsouled said:
Specs aside I have never seen one that was actually flat to 100kHz at any reasonable power level with real output tubes as the source and you just try connecting them in triode mode.. YMMV 🙄
Agree about the Acrosounds, they were reportedly cooked in standard kitchen ovens lol. For what they represent though they were quite good, it their time.
Personally I'd go for a Plitron toroidial:
http://www.plitron.com/audio_std.asp
Personally I'd go for a Plitron toroidial:
http://www.plitron.com/audio_std.asp
Attachments
Hey thanks for all of the replies and direction.
I haven't really tinkered with HiFi audio for at least 25 years. I was involved in Hi Cost audio (Car Audio) for 16 years (1984-2000) but even the finest minimalist system we put out can't compare to the detail I get from my tube amps.
The links to Piltron & Sowter are great and I found a wealth of information on the Lundahl site as well. I expect to see the infamous TO-330 within a week or so and the amp is wired up and ready to go with a set of 6550's. It's using a spare A-431 we had kicking around for the moment but obviously a TO-330 will match my dad's existing amp a whole lot better.
I haven't ever spec'd the transformers to see if they reflect their ratings so I can't comment on whether or not they are true to them but as at the time (sometime in the 50's) there was so much activity around them with various articles, construction projects, etc... it never occurred to me that they would be incorrect. I wouldn't think of connecting them in triode mode. It's a novel idea but that's not what they were designed for. I believe they were designed for beam tubes... Big 6L6's like KT66's or 6550's. With that in mind I think they work well for their intended purpose.
...But then again I'm partial to my A-430's and EL34's so what do I know.
Thanks again for all of the links and direction... My wife is going to just love all of my new projects 😀
I haven't really tinkered with HiFi audio for at least 25 years. I was involved in Hi Cost audio (Car Audio) for 16 years (1984-2000) but even the finest minimalist system we put out can't compare to the detail I get from my tube amps.
The links to Piltron & Sowter are great and I found a wealth of information on the Lundahl site as well. I expect to see the infamous TO-330 within a week or so and the amp is wired up and ready to go with a set of 6550's. It's using a spare A-431 we had kicking around for the moment but obviously a TO-330 will match my dad's existing amp a whole lot better.
I haven't ever spec'd the transformers to see if they reflect their ratings so I can't comment on whether or not they are true to them but as at the time (sometime in the 50's) there was so much activity around them with various articles, construction projects, etc... it never occurred to me that they would be incorrect. I wouldn't think of connecting them in triode mode. It's a novel idea but that's not what they were designed for. I believe they were designed for beam tubes... Big 6L6's like KT66's or 6550's. With that in mind I think they work well for their intended purpose.
...But then again I'm partial to my A-430's and EL34's so what do I know.
Thanks again for all of the links and direction... My wife is going to just love all of my new projects 😀
Hey, please post what your thinking of how the T-330 compares to the A430 combo.
Happy Thanksgiving to all!!!
Happy Thanksgiving to all!!!
pchw said:
Hey Fred,
I'm not sure which one is the better output tranny and I would expect that could fuel a rich debate on its own. I've got the A-430's in my 2 mono block PPUL EL34 setup and they sound terrific. Even non enthusiasts stop and listen (sometimes for hours).
The circuit (a refined williamson circuit with 1-12AU7, 2-12AX7's & 1-6SN7 driving the outputs) is one that was designed for the TO-330 with KT66's or 6550's but because I could get some vintage Dynaco trannys for a fraction of the price of Acrosound's, that's the route we took.
My dad has the same amps using 6550's and Acrosound's but I haven't had the chance to compare them side by side. Actually one of them has an A-431 on the 6550's in it temporarily until the TO-330 arrives. Maybe at some point I'll do a side by side listening comparison. Of course that would only apply to my ears so... It might not mean a whole lot.
Cheers,
Andrew
- Status
- Not open for further replies.