i disagree. High quality stuff in car industrie is not what you can buy and will run 5 or 10 years. High quality is made for military purpose by companies such as Steyer Daimler Puch, is handcrafted by 50 to 75 %, is very expensive, and aimed to run at least 25 years. What they sell us on the consumer market if rubbish, mercedes was able to build cars that run easily 30 years back in the 50´. I suspect in hifi its the same. I never bought any piece of new hifi gear...
Well then indeed we fundamentally disagree. You can buy a car for 15.000US that easily runs 5 or 10 years without a hitch. This is a complex item by any standard. You are approaching the state that many people come close to being able to buy a car for a single montly income. That's close to magic.
Compare that to an analog Class A amp for the same or higher price, and high-end really becomes ridicoulously expensive, and a prime example for some of the worst price/quality ratios on the planet. Not to mention 400$ per foot cables, or 200$ electron tubes, or...
A 100$ CD/DVD player gives incredible good performance, and its only handicap is the low price and the psychology behind that.
Do you remember the discussion on the Behringer stuff? 300$ for a 6-channel, AD/DA/DSP electronic xover doing things that simply are not realistically possible in analog, with (objectively) very good results? That cheap (s)**(t)? Immediately, the quality gets determined by the low price. We keep shooting ourselves in the foot.
Jan Didden
Compare that to an analog Class A amp for the same or higher price, and high-end really becomes ridicoulously expensive, and a prime example for some of the worst price/quality ratios on the planet. Not to mention 400$ per foot cables, or 200$ electron tubes, or...
A 100$ CD/DVD player gives incredible good performance, and its only handicap is the low price and the psychology behind that.
Do you remember the discussion on the Behringer stuff? 300$ for a 6-channel, AD/DA/DSP electronic xover doing things that simply are not realistically possible in analog, with (objectively) very good results? That cheap (s)**(t)? Immediately, the quality gets determined by the low price. We keep shooting ourselves in the foot.
Jan Didden
quality is not the numbers of channels of some hifi gear, or the amount of gimmicks built into a car. Its ridicolous to build cars that are trash after 5 or 10 years, tell thyy are better than older cars because the need 1 liter gas less each 100km, but production of the car needs twice the amount of energy than it will use in those 5 years lifespan. The problem with the 100$ DVD is: i don´t need it, i will not buy anything i can´t repair and that will be trash 3 years later.
Its unethical to use ressources and energy to produce consumer products with intentionally limited lifespan.
Its cynical to tell people are able to buy a car with one month income, 15k$. This may be true for professional tax cheater - countries like LX, but not for the average european citizen, not to speak of other countries.
Its unethical to use ressources and energy to produce consumer products with intentionally limited lifespan.
Its cynical to tell people are able to buy a car with one month income, 15k$. This may be true for professional tax cheater - countries like LX, but not for the average european citizen, not to speak of other countries.
till said:
Till,
Nobody forces you to buy that player. It merely shows where business is going, low cost and high quality, not hi-end. That was the argument.
Its unethical to use ressources and energy to produce consumer products with intentionally limited lifespan.
That's a whole different kettle of fish. If you are serious about that, stick to 12$ kitchen radios that run a year on a single battery.
I was not cynical, I said we are approaching...etc, to show how increadibly cheap and high quality complex mass produced iterms are. BTW, check income distribution, particularly in double income households. They're getting very close, and in large numbers.
Jan Didden
This is not true if you judge also what is called "Nachhaltigkeit"(sustainability?) in germany. Quality is more than what marketing people would like it to be.
You may know what i do. No 12$ radio here. Ich bin zu arm um billig einzukaufen. Boykott on consum.
In your reallity. Obviosly the gap between poor mans reallity and rich mans reallity i growing. You and those Dinks may be the rich 10%.
http://www.zeit.de/2004/34/E-Verteilung
http://www.destatis.de/download/veroe/2_17.pdf
moderators, please its time to split this thread in book related and non book related postings. It has gone off topic somewere at the first or second of now 13 pages.
You are right. I'm very lucky to have compared face to face "hi-end" CD player and "hi-end" turn table (with those Japanese exotic pick-up, made from spider's filament?), with the same album (Earth Wind and Fire, Phil Collins, Laura Fygy, etc).
What can I say. The "Old stuff" turn table excels the session. It has "air"and"lifeness" that CD player dont have. More tonal pleasure. There is a lack a bit of "scratch sound" when track is empty, but the sound of turn table is unbelieveable.
One who never listen to it (younger generation, like JC said) will say that CD (SACD, HDCD, superCD) is the best.
This is not a moan
AES is dead because classical audio engineering is dead. Audio engineering becomes subsection of computer science/technology, when each system board got that lousy AC codec almost for free. In our consumption society there is no more stimuli for extended quality. This is exchanged for the need of new and newest consumer properties. That can be achieved by additional megaflops and next generation of firmware.
Being the member of the AES during last dozen years, I could hardly recall anything substantial last time. Completely agreed with JC that AES is trying to gather audio/acoustic professionals/students and control them. For classical audio AES reserves the historical sessions.
AES is dead because classical audio engineering is dead. Audio engineering becomes subsection of computer science/technology, when each system board got that lousy AC codec almost for free. In our consumption society there is no more stimuli for extended quality. This is exchanged for the need of new and newest consumer properties. That can be achieved by additional megaflops and next generation of firmware.
Being the member of the AES during last dozen years, I could hardly recall anything substantial last time. Completely agreed with JC that AES is trying to gather audio/acoustic professionals/students and control them. For classical audio AES reserves the historical sessions.
Re: This is not a moan
Dimitri,
A lot of what you say is true, but I would argue that the 'extended quality' is already there. Notwithstanding a previous post, for the 'normal' user, a reasonable (100$) CD player and a mid-fi system deliver quality that is indistinguisable from hi-end.
[I don't want to open AGAIN the box by stating that blindly tested this goes for ALL listeners, but maybe we can address it some other time]
So, if you cannot anymore make a difference in quality, the only way to get ahead of the competition is features and design, and completely new products that nobody really needs. Take the iPod, hugely successfull, but does this planet really need it? Of course not. Yet, this type of technology is what is addressed at the AES (codecs, perception, compression, random content-based access, etc).
So, I maintain, AES does what it does to get where the money is.
I do not believe that there is a secret strategy to keep the John Curls of this world out because they have something against them. I DO believe that for mainstream audio companies supporting the AES there is no money in YAACAA (Yet Another Analog Class A Amp).
Jan Didden
dimitri said:
Dimitri,
A lot of what you say is true, but I would argue that the 'extended quality' is already there. Notwithstanding a previous post, for the 'normal' user, a reasonable (100$) CD player and a mid-fi system deliver quality that is indistinguisable from hi-end.
[I don't want to open AGAIN the box by stating that blindly tested this goes for ALL listeners, but maybe we can address it some other time]
So, if you cannot anymore make a difference in quality, the only way to get ahead of the competition is features and design, and completely new products that nobody really needs. Take the iPod, hugely successfull, but does this planet really need it? Of course not. Yet, this type of technology is what is addressed at the AES (codecs, perception, compression, random content-based access, etc).
So, I maintain, AES does what it does to get where the money is.
I do not believe that there is a secret strategy to keep the John Curls of this world out because they have something against them. I DO believe that for mainstream audio companies supporting the AES there is no money in YAACAA (Yet Another Analog Class A Amp).
Jan Didden
till said:
Till,
I don't know why you keep insinuating that I would have a very high income, just because I mentioned that a lot of double incomes have it. I'm not part of that. But in the US, double incomes each making 100k$ a year or more are not rare. That is part of YOUR reality as well.
But take it easy, I was merely trying to point out the relative cost of a complex, extremely reliable car, mass produced, to, say, a 15.000$ hi-end amp.
Jan Didden
Yes, I agree with your statement completely. I got JVC 232 CD player several years ago for $140 and happy with it. I even didn’t mind output NJR4558 op amps. I like the sound and the ability to read CDR and CDRW.
Jan, by no means I’m not against technical progress. But I’m with all my heart against forcible obtrusion of new and useless product features to the customers.
This i-pod. Have you heard violin even with 192kbps – this is the circular saw!
dimitri said:
Dimitri, I know, you are right. But just because we deal in audio for the fun of it, that doesn't mean the AES should do the same. most) AES people are there to make money. And that means, I'm afraid, "forcible obtrusion of new and useless product features to the customers".
It's an economic thing. We need to keep OUR factories running, to keep people in jobs, so they can buy what the OTHER factories make, so they can employ people that can buy what WE make ad nauseatum.
Look in the kitchen area of a department store. There's your collection of useless products if there ever was one!
iPod: When I was traveling through Rajhastan last summer, I was VERY happy with my iPod to enjoy my entire collection (almost) to chose from when I needed a break from the very intrusive environment. Worth every dollar.
Jan Didden
In case we can keep "our" (the amoralic capatalists) factories running only by forceing the customers to buy new and useless product features - something is fundamentally wrong. It will not work.
(PS: i never only spend one thought about buying such a yuppie - status symbol useless trash - like an ipod.)
(PS: i never only spend one thought about buying such a yuppie - status symbol useless trash - like an ipod.)
Indeed! That's the clincher: it works! For now. I also have the feeling that it is fundamentally wrong, and that it cannot last. But I can't put the finger on it.
Jan Didden
Jan Didden
Cannot last?
It's lasted at least 20,000 years.
Historically, we've learned to do more with less stuff and more application of intelligence.
What makes the process last is the value added.
The use of traditional material like steel is world wide in a downward trend on a per capita basis because of better engineering.
How much raw material goes into a twenty watt amp today, compared to 50 years ago? For consumer stuff, what is the quality of output signal?
What is the energy expenditure in making a transistor compared to a vacumn tube?
Humans like to add value and they like to "truck and trade," as some one once said. Its going to last for as long as we like doing these things.
It's lasted at least 20,000 years.
Historically, we've learned to do more with less stuff and more application of intelligence.
What makes the process last is the value added.
The use of traditional material like steel is world wide in a downward trend on a per capita basis because of better engineering.
How much raw material goes into a twenty watt amp today, compared to 50 years ago? For consumer stuff, what is the quality of output signal?
What is the energy expenditure in making a transistor compared to a vacumn tube?
Humans like to add value and they like to "truck and trade," as some one once said. Its going to last for as long as we like doing these things.
It's true, I would NEVER buy a $15,000 amplifier. I could buy a cheap new car for the same basic price, and have done so in recent years! However, if I were a relatively wealthy American doctor or lawyer, I would invest my extra income, (derived from the pain and suffering of others) into expensive hi fi. I would buy a pair of Wilson WAMM's, the very best digital sources , the best phono turntable and cartridge, and the best analog electronics.
These are MY customers. Not people like me.
Now, what do I get out of it? I get the challenge and joy of making very high quality, cost not important, products. You know, Porsches! My associates and I get the satisfaction of each and every refinement to the sound quality that we can invoke. I can hear the difference between my latest design and the award winning design that I made 20 years ago, and also the best design that made 30 years ago. I can hear the progress, as I have learned to pay more attention to details, layout, and and actually remove global negative feedback from my preamp circuits. This is just like autos progressing from flathead, to overhead valves, to overhead cams, etc. If you just drive to the store, there might not be any practical difference, BUT on a race track, WOW!
These are MY customers. Not people like me.
Now, what do I get out of it? I get the challenge and joy of making very high quality, cost not important, products. You know, Porsches! My associates and I get the satisfaction of each and every refinement to the sound quality that we can invoke. I can hear the difference between my latest design and the award winning design that I made 20 years ago, and also the best design that made 30 years ago. I can hear the progress, as I have learned to pay more attention to details, layout, and and actually remove global negative feedback from my preamp circuits. This is just like autos progressing from flathead, to overhead valves, to overhead cams, etc. If you just drive to the store, there might not be any practical difference, BUT on a race track, WOW!
dimitri said:
You won't catch me dead with an i-pod..
dimitri said:
It's called progress Dimitri......From analogue to digital signal processing.....for very good reasons.......
I think the real difficulty for 'classical' enthusiasts, is that you can't really tweak a digital crossover, or parametric equalizer in the same fashion as say a turn table....or LR analogue crossover....
Sorry...the world has moved on...sailing ships had to make way for gas turbine cruisers.....steam engine had to disappear in the face of the ICE......no contest....
john curl said:
Good idea, but only if it causes Nyquist instability, or invokes unnecessarily heavy compensation.......
Otherwise, use as much feedback as possible, not less....
postinge #133 to 135:
My impression is it does not work anymore. the companys mentioned above are dead ill, especially MS is only able to go on this way by abusing law.
It absolutely wrong we do make more with less ressources, we only export problems from the US to other countries. Oil needed each person and year, USA 24 barrel, China 1 barrel ... Were does all the toxics from chip mass production go ? asia.
regarding quality: my impression is quality of consumer goods is going down since some (ten ?) years.
My impression is it does not work anymore. the companys mentioned above are dead ill, especially MS is only able to go on this way by abusing law.
It absolutely wrong we do make more with less ressources, we only export problems from the US to other countries. Oil needed each person and year, USA 24 barrel, China 1 barrel ... Were does all the toxics from chip mass production go ? asia.
regarding quality: my impression is quality of consumer goods is going down since some (ten ?) years.
Mike, you are entitled to your opinion, but don't tell me my business. I started with first class op amp based designs, 30 years ago, to transconductance amp designs 20 years ago, and finally to 'pure' open loop designs, much like Nelson Pass and Charles Hansen now use. I have evolved, you should try it sometime.
By the way, you had trouble with complementary differential inputs? How, why? Because Doug Self didn't invent them? ;-)
By the way, you had trouble with complementary differential inputs? How, why? Because Doug Self didn't invent them? ;-)
- Status
- Not open for further replies.