john curl said:
Looks like Dr Lipshitz has an aversion for untested or 'untestable' subjectivism: 🙂
http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/182/index8.html
Re: Re: ....and on that note..:
Got bogged down in the music industry's red tape....
janneman said:
Got bogged down in the music industry's red tape....
Re: Preaching to the choir.......
Beat you to it - went to a few conventions and decided not to
join. 😎
Jocko Homo said:
Beat you to it - went to a few conventions and decided not to
join. 😎
Mikek, come to the AES and meet with Dr. Lipshitz et al. Right up your alley! You will feel right at home.
john curl said:
Of course the AES is not what it used to be. Technology moved on, industry moved on, a new breed of designers moved forward working on Wigner distributions, Class D amplifiers, lossless/lossy compression, multimedia integration, digital audio intranets, etc. So, if one, like most of us, are familiar with analog, class AB, 2-channel audio, we are left behind. Hi-end has not ' broken away' from the AES. The AES has moved on, and hi-end, mostly by its own doing, stopped in its tracks and tries to repeat the old routine again and again.
"Yes I know it is nonsense technically, buy it really sounds good. Believe me, I tried it myself!"
You reap what you sow
Jan Didden
Jan, if you like it. buy it. Most of it doesn't sound very good to me. Class D! Give me a break! I get class A reviews, BECAUSE I care what the actual sound quality is. No more, no less. Up to date? Clue me in. When I really want to hear quality, I put on a record, sometimes one found in the trash of someone else. Digital essentially sucks!
john curl said:
I can agree with you there...class D is essentially rubbish...only good for sub woofers, and only if used with a high carrier freq. (>100Khz)..
I don't believe the hype about 'low-THD class d' amps.
There aint no such thing...!!!
Which is why Meridian's approach really constitues the optimal solution:
DSP from source to crossovers, and then good quality class-AB for each driver in their transducers.....
http://www.meridian-audio.com/m_800_bro_intro.htm
🙂
john curl said:
John,
Have you heard the DVD-A's of Workingman's Dead and American Beauty? To me, they sound much better than the LPs I bought in 1970 when they came out. Especially Workingman's Dead. Yes, I know you used to work for them , which is why I asked 🙂 .
When DVD or SACD can do 'Live Dead' then I will convert. It is more 'pure' that the other recordings that you mentioned. By the way, SOMETIMES digital sounds darn good, even great, but not often, to my ears.
I'd like to hear "The Eleven" (my fave from that LP) cranked up on DVD-A myself. I'll bet my neighbors wouldn't though. Gives me time to get a house I guess.
Hi,
No offense to anyone. Really. Just wanted to know.
From junior highschool I have been tought that mankind's hearing is 20hz to 20khz. When I was in university, I read something about this, but it says 20-20khz is for "Young man + healthy" person.
Getting older, the bandiwth becomes narrow and narrow, maybe only up to 10khz, 12khz.
Lets say there is someone that brilliant with amplifier design. When he was young, it is OK, because his own hearing is still perfect. But if he becomes old, does he need someone younger to "hear" his designs?
No offense to anyone. Really. Just wanted to know.
From junior highschool I have been tought that mankind's hearing is 20hz to 20khz. When I was in university, I read something about this, but it says 20-20khz is for "Young man + healthy" person.
Getting older, the bandiwth becomes narrow and narrow, maybe only up to 10khz, 12khz.
Lets say there is someone that brilliant with amplifier design. When he was young, it is OK, because his own hearing is still perfect. But if he becomes old, does he need someone younger to "hear" his designs?
The elderly people could filter out crappy high frequencies using their experienced ears...
???
???
???
???
Older people hear pretty well, IF they are audiophiles. Actually the 20-20KHz is sort of an average. I could hear 24KHz when I was young, and many 'ultrasonic' alarms annoyed me. Even as we get older, we can hear the IM distortion in the midrange, and the compromise of high frequency by CD and other sources. Generally, most loudspeakers do not really go much beyond 20KHz, if that far. This is another real problem. Now, supertweeters are being developed to fill in, and for some people, and some new sources, it might be useful.
john curl said:
Class D has come a VERY long way. I own several vintage Sony TA-N88's, end 70's Class D. They are INCOMPARABLE, both technologically and sound quality-wise to the new breed. I had a chance to listen to a pair of Lars Clausen's ZAP modules in sighted testing against a Vincent Class-A amp, which as I knew from earlier experiences was pretty good. The Class D module ran rings around it!
Detailed, transparent and very smooth in the mid and treble. Completely opposite of what I expected. I was impressed, I can tell you!
But back to the discussion on AES, and that they move on and "we" seem to be left behind. Isn't that how it should be? There would be something seriously wrong with audio if the same people that made the headlines 25 years ago would STILL be the people making headlines!
Of course the grapes are not very sweet for those people of 25 years ago, but it is intrinsic in life. Everybody likes experience, but we often forget that experience has a very negative side: the more you have of it, the less you are willing to chart completely unknown terrain. That is why there HAS to be a change of the guard, with the BYF (bright, young and fanatic) new breed taking over the stick.
Generally, life is great. Sometimes, it sucks.
Jan Didden
Jan, the AES is primarily a club for audio business. It is controlled by the likes of Dolby and Lipshitz. They just don't think much of hi end. They prefer mass consumption, like fast food. The AES did not move forward, but in another direction from its initial conception.
Personally, I am all for super digital, Class D, and every new thing that can possibly come out in electronics, such as buckytube transistors, etc. Amazingly, it is the younger people who don't have their minds as open to new possibilities as many older people.
I also feel that many younger people have not been exposed to good analog reproduction, so they think digital is the normal scheme of things, much like kids who have only eaten Macdonald's hamburgers, and nothing homemade.
So long as many in the audio industry have low expectations of what is possible, we won't see much progress, except for cost or space savings. Why should they bother to do it better?
Personally, I am all for super digital, Class D, and every new thing that can possibly come out in electronics, such as buckytube transistors, etc. Amazingly, it is the younger people who don't have their minds as open to new possibilities as many older people.
I also feel that many younger people have not been exposed to good analog reproduction, so they think digital is the normal scheme of things, much like kids who have only eaten Macdonald's hamburgers, and nothing homemade.
So long as many in the audio industry have low expectations of what is possible, we won't see much progress, except for cost or space savings. Why should they bother to do it better?
Go through your stack of old JAES and read how Thomas Stockham had to fight to get CDs as they came to be. If it wasn't for him..............
Then tell me how the AES wants to move forward and in the right direction, as opposed to moving forward in the cheapest direction.
Jocko
Then tell me how the AES wants to move forward and in the right direction, as opposed to moving forward in the cheapest direction.
Jocko
Jocko,
As John Curl rightly remarked, AES is a business club. With maybe a few naive exceptions, the members are there to make a living, and a comfortable one if possible. Nothing wrong with that, but it means they go where the business is. And except for some niche areas, that's not in hi-end, it's in mass produced, low cost AND high quality stuff. We tend to equate mass produced and low cost with low quality, but that is not necessarily so - look at the car industry! Have you ever reflected what an engineering feat it is to produce a complex mechanical/ hydraulical/ electrical/ electronic vehicle at a very high standard, that runs 5 or 10 years without a hitch, mass produced and cheap??
But I digress. I would like to make two more points. Firstly, mass produced, low cost (not the cheapest stuff) and complex digital audio stuff in my view can easily compete quality-wise with 25 year old analog stuff - if objectively regarded.
Secondly, knowing that AES goes where the business goes, it seems a pretty futile exercise to ***** and moan that 'we' are left behind.
Jan Didden
As John Curl rightly remarked, AES is a business club. With maybe a few naive exceptions, the members are there to make a living, and a comfortable one if possible. Nothing wrong with that, but it means they go where the business is. And except for some niche areas, that's not in hi-end, it's in mass produced, low cost AND high quality stuff. We tend to equate mass produced and low cost with low quality, but that is not necessarily so - look at the car industry! Have you ever reflected what an engineering feat it is to produce a complex mechanical/ hydraulical/ electrical/ electronic vehicle at a very high standard, that runs 5 or 10 years without a hitch, mass produced and cheap??
But I digress. I would like to make two more points. Firstly, mass produced, low cost (not the cheapest stuff) and complex digital audio stuff in my view can easily compete quality-wise with 25 year old analog stuff - if objectively regarded.
Secondly, knowing that AES goes where the business goes, it seems a pretty futile exercise to ***** and moan that 'we' are left behind.
Jan Didden
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