Hate to break to you guys but all hearing is 'delusional'. The brain interprets inter-aural delays and the acoustic modifications caused by head, ears and local surroundings to create a sense of direction and distance. Ever wonder how two horizontally positioned ears can differentiate height? There's no reason out of hand to assume some of this sense of placement can't be reproduced by a stereo pair of speakers. In fact, the most flinty-eared, steely hard core objectivist of scientists have laboured for years and millions creating DSP systems to do just that. Q-sound, THX and Dolby Surround (the latter two employing HRTF techniques to enhance the sense of behind and above) are example of their work. Roger Water's "Amused to death" and more recently the latest Beck releases make heavy use of these techniques. If you're systems can't reproduce these effects stereo isn't to blame.
Two mic recordings, by nature of the inter-channel delays, phased crosstalk and the skill of the recording engineer, can also do a credible task of capturing this sense of space. Most early classical recordings were the product of this skill and dedication, before Columbia and DG started treating them like pop recordings. I have dozens of miminally miked classical recordings old and new which create a wonderful sense of depth and width beyond the speakers. I also have some recent Sony and Virgn releases that string images between the speakers like clothes on a laundry line. This isn't magic or psychosis, this is a deep understanding on the part of the recording engineer of the nature of auditory perception.
Two mic recordings, by nature of the inter-channel delays, phased crosstalk and the skill of the recording engineer, can also do a credible task of capturing this sense of space. Most early classical recordings were the product of this skill and dedication, before Columbia and DG started treating them like pop recordings. I have dozens of miminally miked classical recordings old and new which create a wonderful sense of depth and width beyond the speakers. I also have some recent Sony and Virgn releases that string images between the speakers like clothes on a laundry line. This isn't magic or psychosis, this is a deep understanding on the part of the recording engineer of the nature of auditory perception.
Soundstage refers to the ability to recreate within our mind, the correct locations of all the sounds of a recording.. This re-creation requires the system present to both of our ears, the proper temporal and amplitude relationship.phn said:
Current technology is unable to do so.
The first reason is that nobody has attacked the problem in a correct fashion.
The second reason, is not maintaining the correct ITD/IID relationship for each source spacial position.
The third reason is the reliance on two speakers, without defining their spacial relationship to the listener.
poobah said:
A straight recording with two mics does indeed preserve the cues, but this has two issues. First, it is not enough information to simulate the multiple spherical wavefronts of several sources, it does not keep the frequency/amplitude relationships correct with respect to directionality of the wavefronts, and it does not lock the vector directions ear to ear.
Cheers, John
Where is rocket boy today anyway?
I have followed some of Jneutron's points as well. When we have an 11 micorsecond upset in channel timing on CDs and such.
Seems we start right out of the gate with screwed up "imaging".
There are supposed to be old 2 mic jazz recordings (vinyl) that would have an image though... be interesting to hear those. I was a mere lad when those were being made.
I have followed some of Jneutron's points as well. When we have an 11 micorsecond upset in channel timing on CDs and such.
Seems we start right out of the gate with screwed up "imaging".
There are supposed to be old 2 mic jazz recordings (vinyl) that would have an image though... be interesting to hear those. I was a mere lad when those were being made.
poobah said:Where is rocket boy today anyway?
I have followed some of Jneutron's points as well. When we have an 11 micorsecond upset in channel timing on CDs and such.
Seems we start right out of the gate with screwed up "imaging".
There are supposed to be old 2 mic jazz recordings (vinyl) that would have an image though... be interesting to hear those. I was a mere lad when those were being made.
Who's rocket boy??
The 11 uSec is, I believe, local to many low cost mux'ed systems...I cannot believe a "high price spread" would do such a nasty thing..
Out of the gate with screwed up imaging??? think pan pot...the scourge of all things audio..
Cheers, John
Hey rdf,
Look into the directionality of Owl's ears... seriously. One points up, the other down. Owl's eyes are fixed in their sockets. The theory being that if the Owl balances the magitudes (or mentally claculates)... he puts his eyes right on the prey.
Cool huh?
😉
Look into the directionality of Owl's ears... seriously. One points up, the other down. Owl's eyes are fixed in their sockets. The theory being that if the Owl balances the magitudes (or mentally claculates)... he puts his eyes right on the prey.
Cool huh?
😉
jneutron said:
Nope, playing with it gives the band and management something to to do to distract them whilst you do the real work and get the EQ and levels sorted.
Music for owls! Poobah, check into some of the re-releases of 50's-60's RCA and Mercury Living Presence classical recordings. The majority were two, or at most three, channel recordings. The Tacit label appears to be doing a lot in that direction too, though they may be using a bit of DSP enhancement.
Re: the 11 uSec, I'm pretty certain that was addressed very early in CD's history.
Re: the 11 uSec, I'm pretty certain that was addressed very early in CD's history.
pinkmouse said:
That would be funny if it weren't so darn correct..
The sound guy at the Riders concert p####d me off royally, I didn't think it would be that easy to bury the vocals..He's lucky I didn't have duct tape with me during intermission..he'd still be hanging from the stall door in the mens room..upside down.
Cheers, John
Well John was pretty ticked off about the 11 microseconds one day...
We cooled him down by shimming the leading channel an 1/8" of an inch from his ear.
But then he complained about volume loss... there was no pleasing the man.
🙁
Hey RDF,
Are these recordings on CD? I don't own a turntable...
😱
We cooled him down by shimming the leading channel an 1/8" of an inch from his ear.
But then he complained about volume loss... there was no pleasing the man.
🙁
Hey RDF,
Are these recordings on CD? I don't own a turntable...
😱
rdf said:
Exactly, stereo recordings from the 50's, and the early RCA ones in particular, give an illusion, feeling (or whatever you want to call it) of being there in the hall, that few, if any, modern recordings can beat. Even many earlier mono recordings are better in this respect than most modern stereo recordings.
(Yes, I know, I have been saying this a bit too often recently. 🙂 ).
poobah said:
Very well observed!
Most composers "know" this intuitively.
My son is a very gifted cellist/pianist by ear. He can play a "tune" by playing the chords around it without the actual notes of the tune - ie all suggested by expectation.
We (I have no such ear) all believe we hear the tune.
I guess this is off topic ..........
Christer said:
Needs being repeated. Mono, the sound of the past and the future. Seriously. What use would a turntable be without mono playback? Some movie directors still prefer mono to stereo and surround. At least one (name escapes me) insists surround pulls the viewers out of the movie rather than in.
Relax Cliff,
Cable threads are stupid anyway... as are cables. The beauty is in the rare spices that wind up on this smelly green meat.
'sides John/jneutron, aka rocket boy is always funny...
That implied note thing is cool... there in lies much of what we DON'T know about all this stuff.
😉
Cable threads are stupid anyway... as are cables. The beauty is in the rare spices that wind up on this smelly green meat.
'sides John/jneutron, aka rocket boy is always funny...
That implied note thing is cool... there in lies much of what we DON'T know about all this stuff.
😉
poobah said:
In multiple releases. I think the RCA catalogue was last released in SACD. Remastering of the Mercury discs was overseen by Wilma Cozart Fine, who worked on many of the original recordings. Many standard-setting performances in generally excellent sound, limited for the most part by the ribbon mics available at the time.
I'll have to scare some up... as long as it's Classical and not that 50's improv spaz-jazz stuff. That stuff triggers my epilepsy, ADD, Tourette's, flight response, and narcolepsy all at once.
😱
😱
Would you settle for a very bad lumbar disc... from carying around a Hammond for too many years?
See a quick compare of 3 different digital cables. Just my own two cents 😉
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=973539#post973539
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=973539#post973539
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