I was researching this last night a found a chart that showed ever dang intrument I have ever heard of & incuding vocals..I was stunned, NOTHING important to me above about 2k,, actually not much over 1k,, only a organ was at 7k,, I seen nothing above that....I did this search wondering if I was truely missing anything in the top end when running rullrangers from about 100hz to what ever they max at.... from what I see there is absolutely nothing to be conserned about . If fact,,, what the heck does go above 7k.....? I seen nothing that did, nothing. So if one can get all of it , bieng in the real world that is, what is the reason for running super tweeter & tweeters crossed high, Not dissing it, I have never done it, but I am wondering why,,,If this chart speaks the truth, then I am at total ease with running full rangers without a helper at the top, but will use active bottom to about 120hz or so..cheap way out , but works for me.I did find this fasinating ..& rattled this BS to my wife all night, like she gives a sh...t wheather a Saprano is 1k or not....
Almost every (physical) instrument that exists does emit energy reaching beyond 10k, just at ever decreasing amplitude.
Vocals, wind instruments, and strings especially produce high frequency components. Though, again at much lower levels than mid range components.
P.S. You may very well be perfectly happy without anything above a few K, many people are (though I'm not).
Vocals, wind instruments, and strings especially produce high frequency components. Though, again at much lower levels than mid range components.
P.S. You may very well be perfectly happy without anything above a few K, many people are (though I'm not).
frequency range..
yup. Pretty much any and all instruments have overtones/undertones other than the "fundamental" frequencies or "characteristic" frequencies. That's what makes a Stradavarius a Stradavarius.
Ever listen to "electronic" drums versus the real thing? No comparison.
In part the reason why some manufacturers went to an Ultra wide bandwidth design for tweeters (super tweeters), and amplifiers (Matti Otala comes to mind here).
yup. Pretty much any and all instruments have overtones/undertones other than the "fundamental" frequencies or "characteristic" frequencies. That's what makes a Stradavarius a Stradavarius.
Ever listen to "electronic" drums versus the real thing? No comparison.
In part the reason why some manufacturers went to an Ultra wide bandwidth design for tweeters (super tweeters), and amplifiers (Matti Otala comes to mind here).
you know - just because it is published bull, doesn't mean it ain't bull.
Cymbals extend probably beyond 20kHz - so does trumpet etc.
And I can monitor those things very clearly at my deq 2496 - which unfortunately stops display at20kHz - but you can clearly see that nothing stops like a brickwall at 20 kHz - maybe on cd, but definetely not on record.
And I can clearly hear if information gets cut off at 12 or 16kHz - as in satellite radio, even if I can hear discrete tones only to about 14kHz.
There is info out there that shows that some harmonics of acoustic instruments extend to way above 20 kHz
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm
Cymbals extend probably beyond 20kHz - so does trumpet etc.
And I can monitor those things very clearly at my deq 2496 - which unfortunately stops display at20kHz - but you can clearly see that nothing stops like a brickwall at 20 kHz - maybe on cd, but definetely not on record.
And I can clearly hear if information gets cut off at 12 or 16kHz - as in satellite radio, even if I can hear discrete tones only to about 14kHz.
There is info out there that shows that some harmonics of acoustic instruments extend to way above 20 kHz
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm
What you were looking at is a chart of the instruments FUNDAMENTAL tone. The harmonics are then multiples of these fundamentals all the way up WELL past 20khz (though theoretically we only proscess those below 20Khz), this harmonic structure is so significant that in many cases removal of the fundamental tone still leaves a signal that the mind can regenerate.
I have even listened to some auditory training programs (for children with auditory development problems) that shelve out EVERYTHING below 6K in classical music and then futz with whats going on to get the child to pay attention. You could still easily identify the melody.
Sean
I have even listened to some auditory training programs (for children with auditory development problems) that shelve out EVERYTHING below 6K in classical music and then futz with whats going on to get the child to pay attention. You could still easily identify the melody.
Sean
Intresting & very complicated subject I see..
I am just learning these technical areas & see lotsa of subjective info, I know I will let my ears tell me & in time with these fullrangers without help on top will tell me. I have an idea that something is missing & have to decide if it is worth the trade off, all in fun for me & have to be able to boogie.
I am just learning these technical areas & see lotsa of subjective info, I know I will let my ears tell me & in time with these fullrangers without help on top will tell me. I have an idea that something is missing & have to decide if it is worth the trade off, all in fun for me & have to be able to boogie.
I am trying a helper on top....
I am experimenting with thelper tweeter on top,, I only have a pair of Vifa D27TG-45's on hand & ran thru a bunch of cap values, settling on .22uf Auricap, a/b with & without...using test clips, I can hear a obviouse improvement on top, with little messing with the very nice midarnge I got going on, so I have more tweeters on the way to test ribbon's etc.....If I can get a match using a cap only then I will definatley goethis route. Also I used a contractors compression plug to completelly plug the 3" ports on my fe167e cabs,, set sub @ 150 & also slightly stuffed the ports in the subs. result is after 1 day is very promiseing...I can allready see my self going B200 in OB w a LCY-100K's for help & of course the subs..I am sure to get kicked off the bourd.......Just having fun & do hear the justification for helper crossed very high..off topic, kinda...
I am experimenting with thelper tweeter on top,, I only have a pair of Vifa D27TG-45's on hand & ran thru a bunch of cap values, settling on .22uf Auricap, a/b with & without...using test clips, I can hear a obviouse improvement on top, with little messing with the very nice midarnge I got going on, so I have more tweeters on the way to test ribbon's etc.....If I can get a match using a cap only then I will definatley goethis route. Also I used a contractors compression plug to completelly plug the 3" ports on my fe167e cabs,, set sub @ 150 & also slightly stuffed the ports in the subs. result is after 1 day is very promiseing...I can allready see my self going B200 in OB w a LCY-100K's for help & of course the subs..I am sure to get kicked off the bourd.......Just having fun & do hear the justification for helper crossed very high..off topic, kinda...
Before going all out to find out what goes above 20Khz, you might acually want to get your hearing tested.
Also, what media play back do you have? I read time and time again that most people can't even hear above 20Khz. When I brought home a SACD player, my brother n law said that I wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between CD and SACD. I still don't think he gets it, but anyway, he tested my hearing with some Sennheiser headphones (not sure on the software he was using to create tones with) and it turned out that I could hear up in the 24Khz range. Also, the washer was going and lots of people where in the house, so I had to deal with a lot of background noise and the headphones were open air, not sealed, so who knows what I can really hear. It wasn't even in a silent room. I'll admit, I could only hear the presence of something and the tone started to go away, but I did raise the correct hand during the test.
My current main speakers are rated from 35Hz to 27Khz and playing back some of the SACDs results in things I've never heard before. I've acually hurt my ears playing back Beethoven 9th at what I would normaly consitor normal playback levels. Even at 1/4 volume on the amp, you gotta watch it, or you can acually dammage your hearing. You acually have to be carefull playing back vinal and SACD and I guess DVD-A as you can dammage your ears compared to a standard CD that is cut off at 20Khz.
My wife dragged me kicking and screaming to a concert last night. Okay, not really, but I wasn't too thrilled. It was a live concert to video game music. It was acually called video games live. The first half I acually enjoyed as the http://www.indyorch.org/ played live music to frogger, donkey kong, tempest, and lots of other classics. The only problem, every insturment had a mic on it and everything went through a sound processor and amplified and the concert was too loud. By the time intermission hit, I had a POUNDING headach. I acually had to sit out the 2nd half in the lobby. Even then, I could hear it all as well as I wanted too. I must have over sensitive ears or something. The concert acually hurt my ears and we were on the 1st mezzanaine, so we were not too close or anything. I was the only one who got a headach from it. They kind of went from old games to new games and for some reason, they stuck Mario's music in the 2nd half of the concert. That was the only part I wish I had heard inside. I couldn't relate to anything else in the 2nd half of the concert.
Also, what media play back do you have? I read time and time again that most people can't even hear above 20Khz. When I brought home a SACD player, my brother n law said that I wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between CD and SACD. I still don't think he gets it, but anyway, he tested my hearing with some Sennheiser headphones (not sure on the software he was using to create tones with) and it turned out that I could hear up in the 24Khz range. Also, the washer was going and lots of people where in the house, so I had to deal with a lot of background noise and the headphones were open air, not sealed, so who knows what I can really hear. It wasn't even in a silent room. I'll admit, I could only hear the presence of something and the tone started to go away, but I did raise the correct hand during the test.
My current main speakers are rated from 35Hz to 27Khz and playing back some of the SACDs results in things I've never heard before. I've acually hurt my ears playing back Beethoven 9th at what I would normaly consitor normal playback levels. Even at 1/4 volume on the amp, you gotta watch it, or you can acually dammage your hearing. You acually have to be carefull playing back vinal and SACD and I guess DVD-A as you can dammage your ears compared to a standard CD that is cut off at 20Khz.
My wife dragged me kicking and screaming to a concert last night. Okay, not really, but I wasn't too thrilled. It was a live concert to video game music. It was acually called video games live. The first half I acually enjoyed as the http://www.indyorch.org/ played live music to frogger, donkey kong, tempest, and lots of other classics. The only problem, every insturment had a mic on it and everything went through a sound processor and amplified and the concert was too loud. By the time intermission hit, I had a POUNDING headach. I acually had to sit out the 2nd half in the lobby. Even then, I could hear it all as well as I wanted too. I must have over sensitive ears or something. The concert acually hurt my ears and we were on the 1st mezzanaine, so we were not too close or anything. I was the only one who got a headach from it. They kind of went from old games to new games and for some reason, they stuck Mario's music in the 2nd half of the concert. That was the only part I wish I had heard inside. I couldn't relate to anything else in the 2nd half of the concert.
I presume(I hope) you can hear the harmonics of a 20khz note at 10khz & perhaps
some people who say they can hear up to 20khz are actually hearing the 10khz
harmonic. Being middle aged I can't hear above 13khz otherwise.
Lucius
I'm 39..&..
I am a tone junkie with guitar & amps, have been since I could walk & talk, but back on topic. I am after NOT missing info persay, just maybe sparkle & a tone that I like, I never, ever, go for what many call neutral,, I don't believe in it, I just go for what please's me & that's it. I also only play NOS DAC's in main, & vinyl on vintage tube amps & such in other systems....I also were ear plugs 10hrs a day every day because of my contruction work, that has been for the last 25 years & think it has ALOT to do with bieng able to hear alot in the upper range,, allways have, but I should get tested, but in real life, I allways hear sh.......that nobody cares about & it doesn't bother them BUT it definately bothers me if unpleasant upper crap. I have the Vifa crossed with a .0056 styrene cap now & I would guess that is way up there in x-over, but I can tell easily, I wen't thru about 50 cap combo's & even though I can't hear a dang thing coming out of the tweeter itself, It does add the sparkle That I wantedwhen integrated with the other drivers, without fatigue of any kind. detach test clip & sparkle & fine upper detail in gone.The fe167e's I run on top off a pair of semi-sealed active subs... are sealed tight as a drum with nothing in the box. It is clean , very clean & tweeter doesn't seem to mess with imaging, x'ed this high, but x'ed lower it definately does.. I am going B200 in OB anyway down the near future road.. Fullrangers have qualities that I I can't give up ..just a beutifull thing they do.....I know I shouldn't be messing with em,,, but my primitive experiments show me as my hearing is now that helper tweeters are a must with certain full rangers, The B200 might be a whole differant game & top help not needed. Thanks for letting me know about SACD, Vinyl & other sources that could hurt my hearing. I listen @ loud volume alot....well loud to me...It ain't my marshall stack loud..but not much is...*s*...with ear plugs of course!!!!!!!!
I am a tone junkie with guitar & amps, have been since I could walk & talk, but back on topic. I am after NOT missing info persay, just maybe sparkle & a tone that I like, I never, ever, go for what many call neutral,, I don't believe in it, I just go for what please's me & that's it. I also only play NOS DAC's in main, & vinyl on vintage tube amps & such in other systems....I also were ear plugs 10hrs a day every day because of my contruction work, that has been for the last 25 years & think it has ALOT to do with bieng able to hear alot in the upper range,, allways have, but I should get tested, but in real life, I allways hear sh.......that nobody cares about & it doesn't bother them BUT it definately bothers me if unpleasant upper crap. I have the Vifa crossed with a .0056 styrene cap now & I would guess that is way up there in x-over, but I can tell easily, I wen't thru about 50 cap combo's & even though I can't hear a dang thing coming out of the tweeter itself, It does add the sparkle That I wantedwhen integrated with the other drivers, without fatigue of any kind. detach test clip & sparkle & fine upper detail in gone.The fe167e's I run on top off a pair of semi-sealed active subs... are sealed tight as a drum with nothing in the box. It is clean , very clean & tweeter doesn't seem to mess with imaging, x'ed this high, but x'ed lower it definately does.. I am going B200 in OB anyway down the near future road.. Fullrangers have qualities that I I can't give up ..just a beutifull thing they do.....I know I shouldn't be messing with em,,, but my primitive experiments show me as my hearing is now that helper tweeters are a must with certain full rangers, The B200 might be a whole differant game & top help not needed. Thanks for letting me know about SACD, Vinyl & other sources that could hurt my hearing. I listen @ loud volume alot....well loud to me...It ain't my marshall stack loud..but not much is...*s*...with ear plugs of course!!!!!!!!
Lucius said:
I said nothing about hearing the harmonics of a 20Khz note (that would be 40K 60K etc...well out of human hearing)
I was referring to the fact that the tone range the original poster mentioned to has harmonic components thus it would be highly unsatisfying to listen to a 20hz-7Khz bandwith (the range of acoustic fundamentals).
Sean
I didn't mean to twist around what you said. I thought that the harmonics of a note
when down as well as up. Thats why I said "I hope" so my older ears still could somehow
pick up those lost notes. But at least my older brain learned something.
Lucius
Re: I'm 39..&..
Well, I wish I could find the link I read that warned about vinal and SACD and hearing dammage and overall listening to any media that can break in to the 20+Khz range and speakers that can reproduce the notes. Even without the link, I've noticed on my own that my SACD player hooked up in my HT room to the speakers that can go up to 27KHz are so much different then my jamming to my living room stereo with CDs and speakers that can only go to 20Khz(acually it wouldn't even matter what the speakers could do, CDs are cut off at 20Khz). It's like night and day. I can turn the living room stereo up a lot louder and I don't notice or hear any ear pearcing notes. It all sounds kind of flat acually. I grew up in the CD ara and I wouldn't say I missed vinal, but my folks were never in to hifi stuff. Sure my folks had a LP player, but it wasn't anything great, so I missed out on a lot of what real music is suppost to sound like. I'm making up for a lot of lost time. I feel sorry for the MP3 generation, but that's a whole different subject.
I wish I could listen to vinal and tube amps 🙂 Maybe some day, but I'm still a newbie.
I'm 31 and I'm acually surprized that my hearing is still above average. When I was younger I did factory work and I'm glad I always used ear plugs. I use them if I turn on my air compressor, and I'm starting to think about using them when I use the lawn mower. I gotta protect my hearing so I can enjoy music as long as possible. My folks have a Samsung DLP and the color wheel bearings started going out. I heard this really anoying high pitched noise comming from the TV. No one else could hear it. I thought I was going crazy. It took three months of the color wheel failing and getting louder before anyone else could hear it and by then, the high pitched noise acually hurt my ears. I usually hear high pitched noises that others can't. Not sure what that's all about, but I hope it last.
JandG said:
Well, I wish I could find the link I read that warned about vinal and SACD and hearing dammage and overall listening to any media that can break in to the 20+Khz range and speakers that can reproduce the notes. Even without the link, I've noticed on my own that my SACD player hooked up in my HT room to the speakers that can go up to 27KHz are so much different then my jamming to my living room stereo with CDs and speakers that can only go to 20Khz(acually it wouldn't even matter what the speakers could do, CDs are cut off at 20Khz). It's like night and day. I can turn the living room stereo up a lot louder and I don't notice or hear any ear pearcing notes. It all sounds kind of flat acually. I grew up in the CD ara and I wouldn't say I missed vinal, but my folks were never in to hifi stuff. Sure my folks had a LP player, but it wasn't anything great, so I missed out on a lot of what real music is suppost to sound like. I'm making up for a lot of lost time. I feel sorry for the MP3 generation, but that's a whole different subject.
I wish I could listen to vinal and tube amps 🙂 Maybe some day, but I'm still a newbie.
I'm 31 and I'm acually surprized that my hearing is still above average. When I was younger I did factory work and I'm glad I always used ear plugs. I use them if I turn on my air compressor, and I'm starting to think about using them when I use the lawn mower. I gotta protect my hearing so I can enjoy music as long as possible. My folks have a Samsung DLP and the color wheel bearings started going out. I heard this really anoying high pitched noise comming from the TV. No one else could hear it. I thought I was going crazy. It took three months of the color wheel failing and getting louder before anyone else could hear it and by then, the high pitched noise acually hurt my ears. I usually hear high pitched noises that others can't. Not sure what that's all about, but I hope it last.
Tubes & Vinyl is special...
It shows its beutifull colors in my bedroom systems..Scott 299B etc.... & will be the next scare the wife purchase down the road.. I will try to keep it at 2000.00 for TT &tube pre off to my TVC...The NOS DAC I run now has that quality, but .....................still ain't vinyl. That is good you wore ear plugs...... I preach it to all my guys at work. I'm a construction supervisor that gets all kinds of cocky newbies that think they are WAY to cool to were the damn things..It just isn't worth it.. I have abused my ears many, many times though & wish I had not.. My daughters know what good sonics are now & glad of that.. they DO know there stereo's sound like ****.......*s* DAD will fix that.. Wife has decent HT system. all MB Quart,, she ain't seriouse enough for me to DIY any cool for her some mass marcket it is for her.. sounds o.k. for what it is.. @ channel for me ONLY.......nothing else will do. People should really try to explain & push REAL audio to folks, most just don't know....BOSE & ****,,, has them all messed up. We need to demo way more often..& teach.....
All IMO
It shows its beutifull colors in my bedroom systems..Scott 299B etc.... & will be the next scare the wife purchase down the road.. I will try to keep it at 2000.00 for TT &tube pre off to my TVC...The NOS DAC I run now has that quality, but .....................still ain't vinyl. That is good you wore ear plugs...... I preach it to all my guys at work. I'm a construction supervisor that gets all kinds of cocky newbies that think they are WAY to cool to were the damn things..It just isn't worth it.. I have abused my ears many, many times though & wish I had not.. My daughters know what good sonics are now & glad of that.. they DO know there stereo's sound like ****.......*s* DAD will fix that.. Wife has decent HT system. all MB Quart,, she ain't seriouse enough for me to DIY any cool for her some mass marcket it is for her.. sounds o.k. for what it is.. @ channel for me ONLY.......nothing else will do. People should really try to explain & push REAL audio to folks, most just don't know....BOSE & ****,,, has them all messed up. We need to demo way more often..& teach.....
All IMO
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