Zman - thanks again for your pointer - have been looking closely at pluvia/pensil as a result...
Rob,
You have a high-end DIY speaker with the Ellam Flex 3 way - and a beautiful build, congratulations. I have a book-shelf speaker with the same mid-bass driver - the ScanSpeak 8530WK. I had mine in a 14 liter bass-reflex cabinet, and the modest sized ScanSpeak driver produces quite impressive bass for a driver of it's size. In my experience, the wide-band (full-range) drivers will give you less low frequency output - though the MA 10x/11 variants can dig quite low in cabinets like the FH-XL or the Pensils. They will in most cases lack the "slam" of a multi-way system with bigger drivers can give - but that is a reality. 🙂
In the right cabinets, the wide-band/full-range experience has plenty to offer; and you already know that the bass output can be augmented by sub-woofers if required. Have fun! (and keep the questions coming).
You have a high-end DIY speaker with the Ellam Flex 3 way - and a beautiful build, congratulations. I have a book-shelf speaker with the same mid-bass driver - the ScanSpeak 8530WK. I had mine in a 14 liter bass-reflex cabinet, and the modest sized ScanSpeak driver produces quite impressive bass for a driver of it's size. In my experience, the wide-band (full-range) drivers will give you less low frequency output - though the MA 10x/11 variants can dig quite low in cabinets like the FH-XL or the Pensils. They will in most cases lack the "slam" of a multi-way system with bigger drivers can give - but that is a reality. 🙂
In the right cabinets, the wide-band/full-range experience has plenty to offer; and you already know that the bass output can be augmented by sub-woofers if required. Have fun! (and keep the questions coming).
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thanks - its mainly about making something the opposite of what i have to compliment it, certainly not to compete - particularly in bass/slam areas!
R
R
I’d imagine that any single driver FR system would be a departure from the Ellams both in terms of overall volume & bass response, and cost/ complexity of build.
Since you brought up Mark Audio drivers, I’ll mention that I’ve hade some experience with those as well; in fact they’ve been my daily drivers for at least the past 5years - my current main system is a 7.1 rig with Alpair 10.3 along the front row, and Pluvia7 & A6 for front and rear surrounds, respectively. The Pensil series of enclosures are very simple builds when compared to any BLH or manifold/labyrinth designs, but they still manage pretty decent bass performance in a more compact footprint and without the placement requirements of the larger rear mouth designs.
Mark has come out with several new drivers in the past year and a half, the most interesting of which are the “ms” - mono suspension - models. As I’ve been retired from construction for almost that same amount of time, I only had occasion to briefly experiment with one design for the A11MS - one rather taller than Scott’s standard Pensil configuration, but I still very much liked what I heard. Most of the MA drivers are ultra light metal alloy shallow profile cones, but there are also a couple with paper - my favourite of the current such offerings would be A10P.
Since you brought up Mark Audio drivers, I’ll mention that I’ve hade some experience with those as well; in fact they’ve been my daily drivers for at least the past 5years - my current main system is a 7.1 rig with Alpair 10.3 along the front row, and Pluvia7 & A6 for front and rear surrounds, respectively. The Pensil series of enclosures are very simple builds when compared to any BLH or manifold/labyrinth designs, but they still manage pretty decent bass performance in a more compact footprint and without the placement requirements of the larger rear mouth designs.
Mark has come out with several new drivers in the past year and a half, the most interesting of which are the “ms” - mono suspension - models. As I’ve been retired from construction for almost that same amount of time, I only had occasion to briefly experiment with one design for the A11MS - one rather taller than Scott’s standard Pensil configuration, but I still very much liked what I heard. Most of the MA drivers are ultra light metal alloy shallow profile cones, but there are also a couple with paper - my favourite of the current such offerings would be A10P.
thank you chris, very useful insights. am leaning toward Alpair 11 MS as it is recommended for pensil which i think will have the best positioning flexibility, and seems to be rated better in bass (though bass is not what I am after here!). the ellams will very much remain pride of place in the best listening space for the majority of listening, and i envisage not wanting to hear orchestral or jazz/fusion on anything else! however am looking forward to variety a second listening space, and a 'relaxing' project.
Actually, you just might enjoy listening to most types of music with the A11MS Pensils, as they are quite good.🙂
jeff
Given your listening tastes and the room you describe, I can vouch for Alpair 10P if you’re willing to consider non-BLH builds. I made a pair of Mar-Ken10Pwtt (trapezoidal Onken-style enclosures) that I just love for small classical and jazz, but they work well for all types of music. They handle complex passages better than most single drivers, in my experience (Fostex FF105WK was similarly capable). Really excellent reproduction of instruments’ internal resonance and soundstage. The challenging build might scratch that itch, too.
I power mine with single ended tube amps, which match very well.
You’d need to make/buy stands for these.
I power mine with single ended tube amps, which match very well.
You’d need to make/buy stands for these.
Another thanks for all your input - on talking with kjf audio, they say their own recommendations for pensil are either pluvia for a more robust driver that can go louder, or alpair 11ms for more refinement and better soundstage, and they consider these more modern designs are better overall (though i am thinking may not have certain properties of some of the older ones like paper cone 10p's)
so in conclusion; i have been steered toward what i think will be a much more successful project - alpair or pluvia, and a pensil. thanks, rob.
so in conclusion; i have been steered toward what i think will be a much more successful project - alpair or pluvia, and a pensil. thanks, rob.
Rob,
Good to hear that you've made progress on driver and cabinet selection. The Pensil cabinets are a relatively simple build, specially for someone who has managed to do a solid execution on Troel's Ellam Flex 3 way. Nonetheless, KJF should be able to provide flat-packs also if you decide to go that route. Looks like a nice DIY project is underway - keep us posted. 🙂
Good to hear that you've made progress on driver and cabinet selection. The Pensil cabinets are a relatively simple build, specially for someone who has managed to do a solid execution on Troel's Ellam Flex 3 way. Nonetheless, KJF should be able to provide flat-packs also if you decide to go that route. Looks like a nice DIY project is underway - keep us posted. 🙂
cheers - will be a while as i will fund through selling some old stuff. will probably go budget on the cabs using mainly 15mm mdf laminated with 6mm birch ply with solid BB for baffle. (have some 18mm BB 'in stock', and fairly decent 12mm ply (rescued off a fire!) for bracing).
Like the frugal approach Rob. The birch ply and MDF "sandwich" should be much stiffer than MDF only.
I’d forgo the combination of MDF/ ply and stick with just BB. In fact most of my builds for the last 10 yrs or so were with 15mm. The new Pluvia style frames eliminate the need to countersink/rebate for flush mounting, but is is essential to relieve the rear side of driver through hole with a 45dg bevel - much easily do with a router before assembly.
system update
system update and further thoughts;
speaker - sidelined as I snapped up a pair of BK mosfets for the power amp; have been creating the attached with these. (modded within bounds of limited knowledge - it looks like the sort of hifi Noddy might have!)
meanwhile thoughts on the full-range have developed/mutated.
I think (reading between many lines) that I would likely prefer something from Tang Band, so will narrow focus on that.
Brief; Voight/TQWT/BLH or something on those lines. definitely a floorstander. under £100 per driver though super gains might tempt a little more.
I am thinking W5-2143 might be my preferred driver having read various stuff.
(N.B. Display of limited knowledge ahead I'm afraid.)
Q. might these work in a Frugal? - I note W5-1611saf does and TS's of 2143 seem to lie within differences of this + alpair+1611
N.B. I would assume W5-2106 would be fine in frugal being v.similar to 1611
(attached TS's of drivers i refer to)
another option is;
Lautsprecher Shop | W5 Horn 2106 Bausatz | Lautsprecher Selbstbau
Q. given the range of drivers that work in frugal, is the 2143 likely to work in this?
I have trawled the net for a TQWT/voight or similar for 2143 to no avail - maybe this driver is not suited to such?
any suggestions?
N.B.
- the only floorstander 2143 design i see is the merlin...
Loudspeaker shop | Merlin kit | DIY
N.B.2
- has anyone dealt with blue planet acoustic? it is TangB's recommended dealer for EU though they will not answer emails...
Sounds like i am going round in circles a bit, though previous comments have been the catalyst of these further thoughts, and feel I am getting closer!
Rob
system update and further thoughts;
speaker - sidelined as I snapped up a pair of BK mosfets for the power amp; have been creating the attached with these. (modded within bounds of limited knowledge - it looks like the sort of hifi Noddy might have!)
meanwhile thoughts on the full-range have developed/mutated.
I think (reading between many lines) that I would likely prefer something from Tang Band, so will narrow focus on that.
Brief; Voight/TQWT/BLH or something on those lines. definitely a floorstander. under £100 per driver though super gains might tempt a little more.
I am thinking W5-2143 might be my preferred driver having read various stuff.
(N.B. Display of limited knowledge ahead I'm afraid.)
Q. might these work in a Frugal? - I note W5-1611saf does and TS's of 2143 seem to lie within differences of this + alpair+1611
N.B. I would assume W5-2106 would be fine in frugal being v.similar to 1611
(attached TS's of drivers i refer to)
another option is;
Lautsprecher Shop | W5 Horn 2106 Bausatz | Lautsprecher Selbstbau
Q. given the range of drivers that work in frugal, is the 2143 likely to work in this?
I have trawled the net for a TQWT/voight or similar for 2143 to no avail - maybe this driver is not suited to such?
any suggestions?
N.B.
- the only floorstander 2143 design i see is the merlin...
Loudspeaker shop | Merlin kit | DIY
N.B.2
- has anyone dealt with blue planet acoustic? it is TangB's recommended dealer for EU though they will not answer emails...
Sounds like i am going round in circles a bit, though previous comments have been the catalyst of these further thoughts, and feel I am getting closer!
Rob
Attachments
I do buy most of my drivers from Lautsprechershop.de wich are legit an carry the TB drivers. They are also often best on price in my region (Belgium) and have a lot of good kits, often designed by the DIY community or german magazines.
TangBand loudspeaker
If they don't have it, i may go look at speakerland.nl or rumoh.eu wich are also fully legit and cheap. Some drivers are also found in mainstream music equipment stores like Thomann.de or Baxshop.nl.
I never heared about blue planet acoustics but they look legit on the site (wich is no guarantee).
Thanks- have looked at your 1st recc before though they won't answer emails either! I contacted TangB direct and they actually linked me to BPA as their 'EU distributor' - I just like to make contact before ordering from abroad in particular!
Will check your other reccs...
Will check your other reccs...
They are mostly one or two man bussinesses, It may take some time to respond from them. Why do you want to talk to them first?
That would explain it - though;
I asked a couple of easy questions, and not having any reply doesn't inspire confidence (its been weeks from one), and tbh I would rather a small exchange of words when sending a decent amount of money via a webpage to a different country.
(Chinese ebay sellers tend to respond, even on lowish value items when I have asked an occasional question...)
I asked a couple of easy questions, and not having any reply doesn't inspire confidence (its been weeks from one), and tbh I would rather a small exchange of words when sending a decent amount of money via a webpage to a different country.
(Chinese ebay sellers tend to respond, even on lowish value items when I have asked an occasional question...)