Hi - wondering if any fostex experts can lend a couple of pointers. am considering a second 'upstairs quiet' system - late night chamber music/classical piano - very modest listening levels. current room is 16x14 though much reduced area with big eaves (loft). probably for near field listening (at least initially)
am thinking of a fostex based project and am drawn toward back loaded horn, partially for the interesting build, aesthetic qualities, and affordability. looking for an 'open' soundstage but doesn't need to be big or impressive. a nice string quartet sitting just in front of me will do nicely.
i like look of fostex's compact hybrid enclosure for FE126En (4 1/2'').
https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/fe126e_encl.pdf - though am concerned it will just sound very 'small' (any experience?)
q. at lower listening levels is there much to be gained (particularly depth) by going for;
fe166 E (6 1/2'')
https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/166e_enclrev.pdf
or 206En (8'')
https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/206e_enclrev.pdf
i note the specs though if anyone has heard/built any of these it would of course be of far greater value
other points of interest;
- btw, is fe166 the replacement for fe167, and if so are the cab designs available interchangeable
- is it 'Kosha' to 'make' an alternative to T90 super tweet with a FT17 8 or other 'budget' fostex tweeter (to sit on top like T90) - this will be a modest budget system and T90 is out of the question...(think probably not....)
- thinking of a warmer transisor amp for power; vintage(ish) Musical Fidelity integrated (B1?) or maybe homemade mosfet.
any other thoughts that don't increase on the complexity of the above much appreciated. just looking for initial ideas..
thank you
Rob
am thinking of a fostex based project and am drawn toward back loaded horn, partially for the interesting build, aesthetic qualities, and affordability. looking for an 'open' soundstage but doesn't need to be big or impressive. a nice string quartet sitting just in front of me will do nicely.
i like look of fostex's compact hybrid enclosure for FE126En (4 1/2'').
https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/fe126e_encl.pdf - though am concerned it will just sound very 'small' (any experience?)
q. at lower listening levels is there much to be gained (particularly depth) by going for;
fe166 E (6 1/2'')
https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/166e_enclrev.pdf
or 206En (8'')
https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/206e_enclrev.pdf
i note the specs though if anyone has heard/built any of these it would of course be of far greater value
other points of interest;
- btw, is fe166 the replacement for fe167, and if so are the cab designs available interchangeable
- is it 'Kosha' to 'make' an alternative to T90 super tweet with a FT17 8 or other 'budget' fostex tweeter (to sit on top like T90) - this will be a modest budget system and T90 is out of the question...(think probably not....)
- thinking of a warmer transisor amp for power; vintage(ish) Musical Fidelity integrated (B1?) or maybe homemade mosfet.
any other thoughts that don't increase on the complexity of the above much appreciated. just looking for initial ideas..
thank you
Rob
Going through your queries [more or less] in order
-The Factory 126En box isn't up to much, frankly. There are much higher performing enclosures available for that unit.
-The 166En & 206En have more in the way of output & dynamic range; whether that is of value to you or not is a case of YMMV.
-The 166En is not a replacement for the 167E; it's a replacement for the 166E, so not interchangeable with 167E boxes, although it is reasonably so with enclosures for the old 166E. All of the Factory designs for the FExx6En series drivers are actually carry-overs from the old FExx6E series; they didn't change them.
-You can; probably the FT17 would be the most straightforward since it's horn loaded & has a similar polar response.
The En series like a higher output impedance amplifier; what you're suggesting should be OK with a little series R (narrow gauge wire most straightforward way of providing that).
-The Factory 126En box isn't up to much, frankly. There are much higher performing enclosures available for that unit.
-The 166En & 206En have more in the way of output & dynamic range; whether that is of value to you or not is a case of YMMV.
-The 166En is not a replacement for the 167E; it's a replacement for the 166E, so not interchangeable with 167E boxes, although it is reasonably so with enclosures for the old 166E. All of the Factory designs for the FExx6En series drivers are actually carry-overs from the old FExx6E series; they didn't change them.
-You can; probably the FT17 would be the most straightforward since it's horn loaded & has a similar polar response.
The En series like a higher output impedance amplifier; what you're suggesting should be OK with a little series R (narrow gauge wire most straightforward way of providing that).
Yes; don't waste your time with anything expensive though. This is purely about distributed series R and nothing to do with any pseudo science or irrelevancies like skin depth etc. Cheap magnet wire or a core extracted from CAT5 or similar is a good source & offcuts are often available free, gratis & for nothing if you look around. Depends on the length of the run needed & the intended alignment.
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Rob,
let me play devils advocate
I’ve had experience with some of the older fostex drivers and the one that I used most, FE 127, had a lot of treble ‘shout’ which produced listening fatigue and I gave up on it
I don’t have direct experience with the modern fostex drivers but if you look carefully at the published frequency responses you can see which drivers have some nasty wiggles in the treble
The smaller sized drivers have treble peaks that are pushed out to much higher frequencies where I believe they are far less objectionable; the FF85 WK looks to be a very nice driver but its small size will limit what it can do in the bass - nevertheless you might want to do a little bit of research about this driver and see if there’s anything of interest to you
let me play devils advocate
I’ve had experience with some of the older fostex drivers and the one that I used most, FE 127, had a lot of treble ‘shout’ which produced listening fatigue and I gave up on it
I don’t have direct experience with the modern fostex drivers but if you look carefully at the published frequency responses you can see which drivers have some nasty wiggles in the treble
The smaller sized drivers have treble peaks that are pushed out to much higher frequencies where I believe they are far less objectionable; the FF85 WK looks to be a very nice driver but its small size will limit what it can do in the bass - nevertheless you might want to do a little bit of research about this driver and see if there’s anything of interest to you
Interesting, and thank you - i take your comments most seriously.
on my initial choices the 166 looks less problimatic than the 206 in that regard, and fostex say their new cone material improves mid/highs.
the woodworking aspect of the project would not be satisfied by ff85 which is a consideration, and intuition says this driver is too small for my expectations.
what type of cab did you try with 127?
I have also noted someone saying that 'most' of the Ftx design cabs are not rated that highly which is also a concern...
i think trying to get to hear one would be a very good idea though seems not possible. looks like a period of incubation at the very least...
on my initial choices the 166 looks less problimatic than the 206 in that regard, and fostex say their new cone material improves mid/highs.
the woodworking aspect of the project would not be satisfied by ff85 which is a consideration, and intuition says this driver is too small for my expectations.
what type of cab did you try with 127?
I have also noted someone saying that 'most' of the Ftx design cabs are not rated that highly which is also a concern...
i think trying to get to hear one would be a very good idea though seems not possible. looks like a period of incubation at the very least...
As Bigun notes some folks are more sensitive to the type of irregularities evidenced in the FR graphs published by manufacturers such as Fostex - or by independent sources - other folks not so much. So unless you’ve actually had occasion to audition any particular make/model, I think it’d be hard to predict your tolerance, and keep in mind that “dead flat” response might not be your cup of tea.
That said, over the past 20yrs I’ve had experience with a fair representation of the Fostex range most commonly employed by DIYers -certainly with several of the WK series that replaced the FExx7 “magnetically shielded” series that included the FE127 he mentioned above. For my money the newer series are big improvement, and for my ears they have less of the “shout” or upper range harshness of not only the FE126, or the larger FE series with whizzer cones.
I’ve also built several of the “factory” designs with varied results, and as Scott notes above, the hybrid enclosure for the FE126 is definitely not their crowning jewel.
Scott is a quite accomplished loudspeaker enclosure designer, and of numerous encloses I’ve built for that driver, his FrugelHorn FH3 is probably the best balance of performance and build size/complexity, followed by the BK12. As hundreds of owners of the Hornshoppe Horn can attest, it also works quite well in an upscaled variant of the Buschhorn MKI.
From your description of room and listening tastes/habits, I think that the FF105WK might be a sweet spot, and as it just so happens, there is an excellent floorstanding design for that model that was also designed by Scott - the Woden Vampyr.
Keep in mind that even with larger BLH designs, none of this size range (3 - 4”) will be bass monsters, and all will benefit from supplementing with “subs”. If you want to avoid that complexity/cost, then the FF165WK would be with a look. That model doesn’t require the lower frequency gain of a BLH design - a simpler MLTL would suffice, I should think.
That said, over the past 20yrs I’ve had experience with a fair representation of the Fostex range most commonly employed by DIYers -certainly with several of the WK series that replaced the FExx7 “magnetically shielded” series that included the FE127 he mentioned above. For my money the newer series are big improvement, and for my ears they have less of the “shout” or upper range harshness of not only the FE126, or the larger FE series with whizzer cones.
I’ve also built several of the “factory” designs with varied results, and as Scott notes above, the hybrid enclosure for the FE126 is definitely not their crowning jewel.
Scott is a quite accomplished loudspeaker enclosure designer, and of numerous encloses I’ve built for that driver, his FrugelHorn FH3 is probably the best balance of performance and build size/complexity, followed by the BK12. As hundreds of owners of the Hornshoppe Horn can attest, it also works quite well in an upscaled variant of the Buschhorn MKI.
From your description of room and listening tastes/habits, I think that the FF105WK might be a sweet spot, and as it just so happens, there is an excellent floorstanding design for that model that was also designed by Scott - the Woden Vampyr.
Keep in mind that even with larger BLH designs, none of this size range (3 - 4”) will be bass monsters, and all will benefit from supplementing with “subs”. If you want to avoid that complexity/cost, then the FF165WK would be with a look. That model doesn’t require the lower frequency gain of a BLH design - a simpler MLTL would suffice, I should think.
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Hi Rob,
let me offer an additional comment
full range drivers are an interesting beast and without some direct experience of them it’s often not easy to decide what to build first time out because you’ll be looking to optimize all the parameters in the hope that the first thing you build is going to meet all your needs
at least this seems to be my bad habit not only will speakers but also with amplifiers
so if budget is not the ultimate limitation it might just be best to jump in and get a pair of drivers and build up something that you can listen to, and learn from, and figure out from there what the best solution for your needs is going to be
you may be interested to look at this thread although I haven’t heard these myself it may give you a few additional ideas Frugel-Horn Lite for 3" drivers
let me offer an additional comment
full range drivers are an interesting beast and without some direct experience of them it’s often not easy to decide what to build first time out because you’ll be looking to optimize all the parameters in the hope that the first thing you build is going to meet all your needs
at least this seems to be my bad habit not only will speakers but also with amplifiers
so if budget is not the ultimate limitation it might just be best to jump in and get a pair of drivers and build up something that you can listen to, and learn from, and figure out from there what the best solution for your needs is going to be
you may be interested to look at this thread although I haven’t heard these myself it may give you a few additional ideas Frugel-Horn Lite for 3" drivers
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FWIW, any wiring with a proper UL/CSA [and assume any comparable foreign QA rating] is going to be fine for our relatively crude/coarse low frequency audio systems, i.e. 'overkill', so recommend buying the cheapest, which as you note is often free in the form of telephone wiring to snipping off power cords of discarded kitchen appliances, electric tools, etc..
For instance, a recent neighborhood 'estate' sale's discards [i.e.. 'free'] was a 150 ft 14 ga extension cord [$85 avg.] that only needed a $3.29 female plug replaced! At the other extreme, getting rid of my home's AT&T landline telephone netted me nearly 200 ft of primo super fine multi-strand wire.
GM
Bigun - thanks. this system is very much a secondary system to my diy 'beasts' c/o troels, so part of the 'brief' is in fact to explore the 'interesting' to compliment this in a second more private listening zone. i am thinking full range as i am lead to believe that they can produce a really good soundstage that would suit more intimate music and listening. late night - smoking jacket - single malt - spohr wind septet - well behaved cat. (well- not really but you get the idea)
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not to harp on about the one driver but another thread of interest
Finished Woden Lance speakers - ff85wk
and if considering non-Fostex here’s one I made
Martello enclosure for FR88EX
Finished Woden Lance speakers - ff85wk
and if considering non-Fostex here’s one I made
Martello enclosure for FR88EX
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Joined 2009
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hi bigun, i have ellam flex 3w. the transparency was a shock to start, and i have tamed the treble response from the recommended a bit, i prefer them a bit darker. i also tweaked one cap slightly, and increased slightly the balance of woofer. overall they are killer for the money - very open, great soundstage, great driver integration, big sound from relatively smaller box (which wont aesthetically overpower a smaller room if i move).
slight caveats; some recordings i long for a bit of a bbc dip which i might try, and have fussed about around this aspect. they don't go really really low, and have added a sub from 40hz - (another builder found this) - they do now! I have since positioned them more rule of 1/3rds down length of 20x13 room - a big improvement. Ellam-FLEX-3W_Rob
slight caveats; some recordings i long for a bit of a bbc dip which i might try, and have fussed about around this aspect. they don't go really really low, and have added a sub from 40hz - (another builder found this) - they do now! I have since positioned them more rule of 1/3rds down length of 20x13 room - a big improvement. Ellam-FLEX-3W_Rob
bigun - I should have replied directly to your post, doing that now lest I come across as ignoring your enquiry - at the risk of annoying duplication!
hi bigun, i have ellam flex 3w. the transparency was a shock to start, and i have tamed the treble response from the recommended a bit, i prefer them a bit darker. i also tweaked one cap slightly, and increased slightly the balance of woofer. overall they are killer for the money - very open, great soundstage, great driver integration, big sound from relatively smaller box (which wont aesthetically overpower a smaller room if i move).
slight caveats; some recordings i long for a bit of a bbc dip which i might try, and have fussed about around this aspect. they don't go really really low, and have added a sub from 40hz - (another builder found this) - they do now! I have since positioned them more rule of 1/3rds down length of 20x13 room - a big improvement. Ellam-FLEX-3W_Rob
hi bigun, i have ellam flex 3w. the transparency was a shock to start, and i have tamed the treble response from the recommended a bit, i prefer them a bit darker. i also tweaked one cap slightly, and increased slightly the balance of woofer. overall they are killer for the money - very open, great soundstage, great driver integration, big sound from relatively smaller box (which wont aesthetically overpower a smaller room if i move).
slight caveats; some recordings i long for a bit of a bbc dip which i might try, and have fussed about around this aspect. they don't go really really low, and have added a sub from 40hz - (another builder found this) - they do now! I have since positioned them more rule of 1/3rds down length of 20x13 room - a big improvement. Ellam-FLEX-3W_Rob
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