Pro drivers can work so well for home audio. Perhaps you are following the "are 15" drivers overkill for home audio" thread.
As you know, I am very pleased with my speakers based on a 15" woofer. The frustrations are: they are expensive, but offer good value often, and they require huge boxes- not good for married people living in flats.
Although I live in the USA, San Francisco prices mean I live in a flat, so I understand! My wife is pretty supportive though- she sees that I am addicted to this hobby and I think she feels that there are a lot of worse things I could be doing (which is true- I can easily think of a lot of worse things
)
12" pro drivers often work just fine, in a much smaller cabinet, but they cost about the same as 15" . Still I recommend this approach, and maybe the large number of pro drivers being sold will get you some sort of decent price vs. the high cost of importing individual units. Also they are so efficient that you can get by easily with a cheap gainclone
As you know, I am very pleased with my speakers based on a 15" woofer. The frustrations are: they are expensive, but offer good value often, and they require huge boxes- not good for married people living in flats.
Although I live in the USA, San Francisco prices mean I live in a flat, so I understand! My wife is pretty supportive though- she sees that I am addicted to this hobby and I think she feels that there are a lot of worse things I could be doing (which is true- I can easily think of a lot of worse things
)12" pro drivers often work just fine, in a much smaller cabinet, but they cost about the same as 15" . Still I recommend this approach, and maybe the large number of pro drivers being sold will get you some sort of decent price vs. the high cost of importing individual units. Also they are so efficient that you can get by easily with a cheap gainclone
Yes, but the prices are still quite high. The 15" Selenium you're using is about Rs.8,000 each, plus taxes. I think the total will be about Rs.9,000 with taxes, and that's across the counter in Bombay. Anywhere else in India, you'll have to factor the courier costs for about eleven kilos of solid matter. And that's just one driver, not a pair.Variac said:
And even there, I'd have liked a bit more Xmax.
Yes, I know you don't find the low Xmax a problem at all, but then I have a theory for that... I believe it's because you are using a vented enclosure. I'd have liked to try a sealed box. But then most pro drivers seem to be designed for vented boxes, aren't they?Ah, well. We make do.
I guess I'm just repeating myself from a past posting. 9000 rupees comes out to $200 each- really not that much more expensive than the US where they are about $135 at Parts Express- the cheapest place around. Shipping those pigs around is always a problem!
Of course I really think you need to get some RCF's and those are a bit more...... They are still on the cheaper side of pro stuff, though. You need a spy at that pro gear place that can test them and choose the models that sound good.
Trust me, if you have the 15", you don't need more x-max, in fact the lower x-max is the secret to the efficiency, and more importantly- lower distortion. If the 15" boxes are too big for your house, then the 12's are proably big enough! You do end up sacrificing the lowest notes though. The bass is so much better in other ways you don't miss it. Also, maybe a bit of active lower bass bost would do the job. If you have neighbors, the music is probably not so loud as to require a lot of x-max anyway.
Anyway here or there, it usually comes down to how much one can spend on these things..... One of my cliens paid me in cash recently and about $200 has misteriously disappeared and I misteriously got my new ribbon Aurum Cantus tweeters
Of course I really think you need to get some RCF's and those are a bit more...... They are still on the cheaper side of pro stuff, though. You need a spy at that pro gear place that can test them and choose the models that sound good.
Trust me, if you have the 15", you don't need more x-max, in fact the lower x-max is the secret to the efficiency, and more importantly- lower distortion. If the 15" boxes are too big for your house, then the 12's are proably big enough! You do end up sacrificing the lowest notes though. The bass is so much better in other ways you don't miss it. Also, maybe a bit of active lower bass bost would do the job. If you have neighbors, the music is probably not so loud as to require a lot of x-max anyway.
Anyway here or there, it usually comes down to how much one can spend on these things..... One of my cliens paid me in cash recently and about $200 has misteriously disappeared and I misteriously got my new ribbon Aurum Cantus tweeters
Want to try Randy Slone's MOSFET amps?
PS: And if this discussion develops, it would be better to take it to a new thread, so that we keep this thread focused on components availability in India.
If you are MOSFETically inclined, maybe you can consider one of the MOSFET designs from Randy Slone's books and kits? See some options here. His kit prices are higher than what we'd have to pay in India if we started from scratch, because PCBs and heatsinks are much less expensive here. The Hitachi MOSFETs he uses are available in Bombay, I'm told, and are the same high-quality devices that Rod Elliott (a very recent convert to MOSFET OPS) has used for his MOSFET power amp. I'm planning on attempting an OptiMOS one day.Rahul said:
PS: And if this discussion develops, it would be better to take it to a new thread, so that we keep this thread focused on components availability in India.
Hi Rahul,Rahul said:
Have you decided what topology/genre/output you are looking at? Tubes, BJT's, MOSFET, Chips (!!!), etc. I too am thinking of building one. My choices at the moment are:
1. JLH revised Class A. (I've rcvd all BJT's and small devices from ON Semi)
2. 6L6 or EL34 Push Pull (Have the Mullard EL34, Have the 6SN7/6SL6 drivers & the OPT's). Limited numbers of these tubes are available here.
3. The Leach Amp. (Have the BJT's)
Will some of the above interest you? Currently, the JLH is the hot favourite for me. Over a period of time I'd bi-amp the JLH for Hi and Leach Amp for Lo. I have already built a 6DJ8 active XO.
Secondly, what about a real Tube preamp? I'm putting together one at the moment. I can organise the Tubes for interested parties. Possibilities range from the ECC series to more exotic 6SL7 (25 tubes in a shop, RCA NOS) to 6SN7.
If there is sufficient interest then perhaps a new dedicated thread is in order.
Tarun:
You have to save more because I want you to get one of the RCF drivers.I'll bet they have more x-max than the Seleniums too.
My speakers are all torn apart because:
-I just finished veneering the bass boxes, (a pic with JBL drivers is on my thread)
-My baffles were too small.
-Dick Olsher is redesigning the thing for the new tweeters (which I mentioned to him due to their reputation here.
So I can't answer any sound questions.
My current speakers now have JBL 15" woofers- a varient that was never available as a separate driver that I picked up NEW surplus for $60 ea. !!!!!!!!!! Huge magnet, cast frame- from a $3000 JBL speaker. I wish I had bought 10. I got 2 as a sample and when I wrote for more they were out...I'll never get that lucky again!
The AC tweeters have a superb reputation already. The Fostex was OK, but one of the things I look for in a tweeter is- do cymbols sound like brass metal or just a tizzz sound- the Fostex had too much tizz. I am confident I will like the AC, but I have gotten lots of e-mail asking how I like them. So I haven't heard the JBLs OR the AC tweets, so I have NO idea how my speakers sound except that the Fostex 208's are still in there and I know they sound superb..
Amp topic:
From what people are saying, the Leach amp is getting a bit long in the tooth- I'd try a good Pass design if the power requirements are low. For bass though it prob is fine. Whoops sorry to use so myuch bandwidth, bye, Mark
You have to save more because I want you to get one of the RCF drivers.I'll bet they have more x-max than the Seleniums too.
My speakers are all torn apart because:
-I just finished veneering the bass boxes, (a pic with JBL drivers is on my thread)
-My baffles were too small.
-Dick Olsher is redesigning the thing for the new tweeters (which I mentioned to him due to their reputation here.
So I can't answer any sound questions.
My current speakers now have JBL 15" woofers- a varient that was never available as a separate driver that I picked up NEW surplus for $60 ea. !!!!!!!!!! Huge magnet, cast frame- from a $3000 JBL speaker. I wish I had bought 10. I got 2 as a sample and when I wrote for more they were out...I'll never get that lucky again!
The AC tweeters have a superb reputation already. The Fostex was OK, but one of the things I look for in a tweeter is- do cymbols sound like brass metal or just a tizzz sound- the Fostex had too much tizz. I am confident I will like the AC, but I have gotten lots of e-mail asking how I like them. So I haven't heard the JBLs OR the AC tweets, so I have NO idea how my speakers sound except that the Fostex 208's are still in there and I know they sound superb..
Amp topic:
From what people are saying, the Leach amp is getting a bit long in the tooth- I'd try a good Pass design if the power requirements are low. For bass though it prob is fine. Whoops sorry to use so myuch bandwidth, bye, Mark
Dear Friends,
Thanks for your valuable suggestions. It is only recently I turned my interest to audio again. Last 10years had been spent mainly designing RF circuits.
My present requirement dictates a raw power amp as I do not have one.
I have decided to make N Channel ouput amp from Aussie amp site. Main reason being MOSFETs are readily available here in local mkt @Rs35-40/- each. PCB is simple and well laid out also it is single sided, easy to get them.
Yes Ashok I am very keen to assemble some tube gear will have to start collecting all components. Thanks for your offer.
I remember having few of these 6SL and SK devices in my collection.
Once done with power ultimately I feel should be moving towards class A design and JLH is realy very goodone. If components are hard to come by i remember there is a version based on IRF540s. Dont get me wrong I am not biased towards mosfets they just seen to be available everywhere.
Just a mention here that extruded Al sections and very good quality heatsinks are available in various shapes at Agra. Not new, all disposal ex army stuff. Mostly they imported stuff and of very high standard, vrey cheap Rs100/ Kg ( Ideal for Class A)
TCPIP I just went thru the OPTI-MOS design and i am impressed. This one also has protection for output Thanks for the link. Laying out boards for this one will take some time and then again I will be visiting Mumbai in June so will buy the components then.
Last week I also designed a PCB for the Citation 12 mosfet version, will be getting from my PCB wala tomorrow. This will go into a HT 5ch amp for my friend. Transformer has been salvaged from an old defunct 24V UPS. This is no high end job but then these palyers are also not amogst the better ones.
Sorry for the long post. We may have to start a new thread.
Regards
Rahul
Thanks for your valuable suggestions. It is only recently I turned my interest to audio again. Last 10years had been spent mainly designing RF circuits.
My present requirement dictates a raw power amp as I do not have one.
I have decided to make N Channel ouput amp from Aussie amp site. Main reason being MOSFETs are readily available here in local mkt @Rs35-40/- each. PCB is simple and well laid out also it is single sided, easy to get them.
Yes Ashok I am very keen to assemble some tube gear will have to start collecting all components. Thanks for your offer.
I remember having few of these 6SL and SK devices in my collection.
Once done with power ultimately I feel should be moving towards class A design and JLH is realy very goodone. If components are hard to come by i remember there is a version based on IRF540s. Dont get me wrong I am not biased towards mosfets they just seen to be available everywhere.
Just a mention here that extruded Al sections and very good quality heatsinks are available in various shapes at Agra. Not new, all disposal ex army stuff. Mostly they imported stuff and of very high standard, vrey cheap Rs100/ Kg ( Ideal for Class A)
TCPIP I just went thru the OPTI-MOS design and i am impressed. This one also has protection for output Thanks for the link. Laying out boards for this one will take some time and then again I will be visiting Mumbai in June so will buy the components then.
Last week I also designed a PCB for the Citation 12 mosfet version, will be getting from my PCB wala tomorrow. This will go into a HT 5ch amp for my friend. Transformer has been salvaged from an old defunct 24V UPS. This is no high end job but then these palyers are also not amogst the better ones.
Sorry for the long post. We may have to start a new thread.
Regards
Rahul
Ashok,
I was referring to this version.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3075&perpage=15&pagenumber=58
A days job for most of us I feel.
Regards
Rahul
I was referring to this version.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3075&perpage=15&pagenumber=58
A days job for most of us I feel.
Regards
Rahul
Hi! Vivek
Yes it is the same design from Aussie Amplifier. I will be designing my own PCB.
BTW I like this artwork by Pelle here in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19209&goto=nextoldest
Bye
Rahul
Yes it is the same design from Aussie Amplifier. I will be designing my own PCB.
BTW I like this artwork by Pelle here in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19209&goto=nextoldest
Bye
Rahul
Power MOSFETs this cheap????
This is quite unbelievable, and very much on-topic for this thread.... how did you find power MOSFETs at that price? The price I get in L.Road for a complementary pair of 2SK1058/2SJ162 is more than Rs.300 a pair.Rahul said:
This design is in fact even more interesting that that... it has symmetrical soft clipping. This allows it to handle amplitude peaks much more smoothly, and protects tweeters from spurious high harmonics generated by hard clipping. I suggest that you get a copy of Randy Slone's book where he discusses these power amps.... both his books are superb.
Hi!
Yes Tarun it is indeed true IRF250 and similar are available for this price. Possible explanation that they are used in large quantities mainly in power sector ie UPS etc. Large number of importers, huge demand, good competition among dealers meaning sale at lesser margin.
Smaller IRF540 goes for about Rs18/- but a word of caution the P channel ie IRF9540 is about three times the cost of its N channel device. This was one of the reason I have been concentrating on IRF based N channel only amp (IRFZ44 used in common invertors costs Rs15/ only).
I have noticed that even smaller TO220 devices in 2SK and 2SJ range are expensive a bigger device will be obviuosly more costly, add to it factors just opposite to that of IRF from sale point of view.
Slone book has good reviews I will also buy them , its been long since I bought some stuff related to audio.
OPTI-MOS is my opinion one of the finest mosfet design that I have come across, but again there are few limiting factors for us
1) Expensive MOSFETs
2) Double sided PCB.
Doing our own layout for this complex ckt will require bit of experimentation and time. I do not know if original artwork is available.
We can take it up as a long term project but for now I need something immediate mainly for driving the subs or just sheer high power for parties. Aussie design is more than adequate for present immediate need.
Got made Citation 12 MOSFET boards , had to collect them today but could not go there, will be getting tomorrow.
Each channel is about 3 1/2 X 2 1/2 inches. Each channel PCB should cost about Rs25/. Have ordered few spare drop a line if you need one or its layout in PDF. A cheap high quality 50+50W amp is pretty good one to begin with.
Regards
Rahul
PS: Have started a Group amp project thread under Electronics and parts , suggest we follow the subject more deeply there.
Yes Tarun it is indeed true IRF250 and similar are available for this price. Possible explanation that they are used in large quantities mainly in power sector ie UPS etc. Large number of importers, huge demand, good competition among dealers meaning sale at lesser margin.
Smaller IRF540 goes for about Rs18/- but a word of caution the P channel ie IRF9540 is about three times the cost of its N channel device. This was one of the reason I have been concentrating on IRF based N channel only amp (IRFZ44 used in common invertors costs Rs15/ only).
I have noticed that even smaller TO220 devices in 2SK and 2SJ range are expensive a bigger device will be obviuosly more costly, add to it factors just opposite to that of IRF from sale point of view.
Slone book has good reviews I will also buy them , its been long since I bought some stuff related to audio.
OPTI-MOS is my opinion one of the finest mosfet design that I have come across, but again there are few limiting factors for us
1) Expensive MOSFETs
2) Double sided PCB.
Doing our own layout for this complex ckt will require bit of experimentation and time. I do not know if original artwork is available.
We can take it up as a long term project but for now I need something immediate mainly for driving the subs or just sheer high power for parties. Aussie design is more than adequate for present immediate need.
Got made Citation 12 MOSFET boards , had to collect them today but could not go there, will be getting tomorrow.
Each channel is about 3 1/2 X 2 1/2 inches. Each channel PCB should cost about Rs25/. Have ordered few spare drop a line if you need one or its layout in PDF. A cheap high quality 50+50W amp is pretty good one to begin with.
Regards
Rahul
PS: Have started a Group amp project thread under Electronics and parts , suggest we follow the subject more deeply there.
finding corrson
After driving around town for half an hour and circling his house twice I finally managed to meet Shiva(corrson) last sunday. The agenda was to listen to his system, a pair of speakers which is his commercial offering, majority of which are exported to places like singapore.
But the real motive of the meeting was to get an exchange on a pair of Vifa tweeters i had picked up from him some time back. I was a bit sucpicious to if they where new, I intimated him and he was willing to get it replaced asap. But it was getting a bit delayed as his shipment wasn't cleared in time..well after all its Indian customs. Finally he called up and we agreed to meet on sunday. Vivek had also turned up for he too felt the same about his tweeters. But good thing is that Shiva was very willing to replace them.(This is the caution i had put in one of my earlier posts).
Soon we started discussing the plight of diyers and hardcore audiophiles in India and all and later decided that we should turn on some music to cool us down. Picking up at random, we started off with Norah Jones- come away with me, following it up with cassidy's songbird, Kralls- look in your eyes (SACD), Clapton-Capton Chronicles, sheffield drum and tracks, parson-stereotomy...But the whole show was being messed up by the rather poor power supply of banagalore..Even after putting enough power conditioners and stabilizers the situation din't improve much. To make matters worse, a power hungry Class A amp was being used to drive the speakers.
Talking of his speakers, they are M-T-M floorstaners using P17 and an aluminium tweeter. Its a reflex rear ported system. The dirty tricks of the rear port were soon apparent by the boominess it added to the sound in the room, as the speakers were put too near the corners. But the mid bass was just excellent. The highs again were not that resolved or i would say aggressive enough to my liking. He said it was the color of his amp that was showing up. True, we changed the amp to one of his older musical fedility ones and the highs became more prominent. However personally I appreciate the character of uncle Gjo's system better.
Corrson is setting up his showroom/office in bangalore and is also planning to set up a listenig room there.. SO next session will be there once its ready. Talking of things that might interest fellow DIYers, corrson will be launching a catalogue and pricelist soon. They (corrson) are actualy woking on it. They had some scanspeak drivers, but were sold out in no time. His inventory seems good. Other than drivers he has got stuff like, Tubes for reflex ports, damping material to be used inside cabinets, metalised polypropelyne Capacitors, non inductive resistors, Spikes along with T-nuts, speaker cables, grill cloth, holders, biding posts etc etc. He also has plans to launch loudspeaker kits. As a vifa distributer, their main business focus will however remain on OEM manufactures. At the same time he's promised to serve the DIY community as well to the best extent possible. He said he'll be willing to help a group buy or something similar from places like singapore etc, through his contacts there. It seems these drivers have been selling like hot cakes over past couple of weeks. When we were there, he was processing an order from some one in Bombay..some Kiran he said..(Or Tarun was that you..?)
Back at his workshop, he said, he's got a CLIO system with some Behringer mic's etc. Stuff that he uses for his work. I guess those will remain very much out of reach.! He could not show us a good majority of stuff as it was all spread around. We hope to see better order once his office is set up . Btw, if we have a group order of any kind, I guess, his help would be valuable, especially in getting the stuff across the border. We told him about the forum and a rough estimate of how many of us are active and some coordinates as well.
I was thinking.... how many of us would be interested in getting a sub driver. Probably we can bias him towards getting them.?
ajju
After driving around town for half an hour and circling his house twice I finally managed to meet Shiva(corrson) last sunday. The agenda was to listen to his system, a pair of speakers which is his commercial offering, majority of which are exported to places like singapore.
But the real motive of the meeting was to get an exchange on a pair of Vifa tweeters i had picked up from him some time back. I was a bit sucpicious to if they where new, I intimated him and he was willing to get it replaced asap. But it was getting a bit delayed as his shipment wasn't cleared in time..well after all its Indian customs. Finally he called up and we agreed to meet on sunday. Vivek had also turned up for he too felt the same about his tweeters. But good thing is that Shiva was very willing to replace them.(This is the caution i had put in one of my earlier posts).
Soon we started discussing the plight of diyers and hardcore audiophiles in India and all and later decided that we should turn on some music to cool us down
. Picking up at random, we started off with Norah Jones- come away with me, following it up with cassidy's songbird, Kralls- look in your eyes (SACD), Clapton-Capton Chronicles, sheffield drum and tracks, parson-stereotomy...But the whole show was being messed up by the rather poor power supply of banagalore..Even after putting enough power conditioners and stabilizers the situation din't improve much. To make matters worse, a power hungry Class A amp was being used to drive the speakers.Talking of his speakers, they are M-T-M floorstaners using P17 and an aluminium tweeter. Its a reflex rear ported system. The dirty tricks of the rear port were soon apparent by the boominess it added to the sound in the room, as the speakers were put too near the corners. But the mid bass was just excellent. The highs again were not that resolved or i would say aggressive enough to my liking. He said it was the color of his amp that was showing up. True, we changed the amp to one of his older musical fedility ones and the highs became more prominent. However personally I appreciate the character of uncle Gjo's system better
. Corrson is setting up his showroom/office in bangalore and is also planning to set up a listenig room there.. SO next session will be there once its ready. Talking of things that might interest fellow DIYers, corrson will be launching a catalogue and pricelist soon. They (corrson) are actualy woking on it. They had some scanspeak drivers, but were sold out in no time. His inventory seems good. Other than drivers he has got stuff like, Tubes for reflex ports, damping material to be used inside cabinets, metalised polypropelyne Capacitors, non inductive resistors, Spikes along with T-nuts, speaker cables, grill cloth, holders, biding posts etc etc. He also has plans to launch loudspeaker kits. As a vifa distributer, their main business focus will however remain on OEM manufactures. At the same time he's promised to serve the DIY community as well to the best extent possible. He said he'll be willing to help a group buy or something similar from places like singapore etc, through his contacts there. It seems these drivers have been selling like hot cakes over past couple of weeks. When we were there, he was processing an order from some one in Bombay..some Kiran he said..(Or Tarun was that you..?)
Back at his workshop, he said, he's got a CLIO system with some Behringer mic's etc. Stuff that he uses for his work. I guess those will remain very much out of reach.!
He could not show us a good majority of stuff as it was all spread around. We hope to see better order once his office is set up . Btw, if we have a group order of any kind, I guess, his help would be valuable, especially in getting the stuff across the border. We told him about the forum and a rough estimate of how many of us are active and some coordinates as well.I was thinking.... how many of us would be interested in getting a sub driver. Probably we can bias him towards getting them.?
ajju
Re: finding corrson
(I know, I know... sick PJ.)
Jokes apart, I've been on the lookout for good high-Qts, low-Fs woofers for an open baffle woofer I want to try. I found Mahendra Palesha's drivers as an option, and they are priced attractively, but their T/S params make them more suited to vented boxes.
Nope. Not me. How I wish!ajju said:
What kind of biasing? Class A? Let the good vibes floooow from collector to emitter?
(I know, I know... sick PJ.)Jokes apart, I've been on the lookout for good high-Qts, low-Fs woofers for an open baffle woofer I want to try. I found Mahendra Palesha's drivers as an option, and they are priced attractively, but their T/S params make them more suited to vented boxes.
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