Hi
During my DAC talks with people, I noticed several Variables/Parameters being mentioned regarding a DAC, which a common preference toward a certain value in that Variable.
For example,
I as advised to prefer DACs that are based on a Current Output DAC chip, over a Voltage Output chip.
The reason I was told, was that Voltage Output DAC chips are too integrated - too much inside a small chip, and that comes at the expense of the resulting sound.
The Current Output DAC chips on the other hand, maybe a bit more complicated (If you build the PCB, not if you buy it ready-made), but will give a better sound quality.
So my purpose in creating this thread, is to gather several important parameters regarding a DAC, and the preferred value in each such parameter,
so to make choosing a DAC with the best sound quality that we can get, slightly easier.
So Variable #1 is:
- DAC Chip: Current Output (+ the needed circuitry to convert to voltage) vs Voltage Output
What are more such important parameters?
Do the following parameters have an effect on the sound quality?
- DAC Power: USB Powered / DC Powered / AC Powered
and also:
I head from time to time expressions like NOS, MultiBit, Delta-Sigma, and such,
should these also be included here?
If yes, what are the options in them, and which one is the most preferred?
Thank you all
During my DAC talks with people, I noticed several Variables/Parameters being mentioned regarding a DAC, which a common preference toward a certain value in that Variable.
For example,
I as advised to prefer DACs that are based on a Current Output DAC chip, over a Voltage Output chip.
The reason I was told, was that Voltage Output DAC chips are too integrated - too much inside a small chip, and that comes at the expense of the resulting sound.
The Current Output DAC chips on the other hand, maybe a bit more complicated (If you build the PCB, not if you buy it ready-made), but will give a better sound quality.
So my purpose in creating this thread, is to gather several important parameters regarding a DAC, and the preferred value in each such parameter,
so to make choosing a DAC with the best sound quality that we can get, slightly easier.
So Variable #1 is:
- DAC Chip: Current Output (+ the needed circuitry to convert to voltage) vs Voltage Output
What are more such important parameters?
Do the following parameters have an effect on the sound quality?
- DAC Power: USB Powered / DC Powered / AC Powered
and also:
I head from time to time expressions like NOS, MultiBit, Delta-Sigma, and such,
should these also be included here?
If yes, what are the options in them, and which one is the most preferred?
Thank you all
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You can't properly choose a dac the way you are trying to do it. However, you can do it if the word 'properly' is omitted. People who don't know dacs often assume the dac chip is the most important factor in sound quality. In fact you are not the first person coming here asking the same type of questions.
Actually, implementation usually has more to do with it than dac chip type. Chip type may set a maximum limit on possible sound quality with the best possible implementation, but the best possible implementation tends to be rare, and usually quite expensive.
As far as dac chips go, right now probably ESS Sabre chips can potentially make the best dacs, but many people say they don't like the sound of Sabre dacs. Why? Because they have never heard the best implementation of one, which is very hard to do and rarely found at any price. Also, how to do it is not completely well understood in the diy community. It appears to have been done commercially, but with unknown trade secrets involved.
So, if you want to make a list of the properties of the best dac chip, just make a list that describes a Sabre chip and you will have it. At least for today.
Then you might want to tear that up and throw it away. Better to ask what is the best sounding dac implementation in a given price range and given how much diy work one is willing to do. That would much more likely be something of practical value to know.
Actually, implementation usually has more to do with it than dac chip type. Chip type may set a maximum limit on possible sound quality with the best possible implementation, but the best possible implementation tends to be rare, and usually quite expensive.
As far as dac chips go, right now probably ESS Sabre chips can potentially make the best dacs, but many people say they don't like the sound of Sabre dacs. Why? Because they have never heard the best implementation of one, which is very hard to do and rarely found at any price. Also, how to do it is not completely well understood in the diy community. It appears to have been done commercially, but with unknown trade secrets involved.
So, if you want to make a list of the properties of the best dac chip, just make a list that describes a Sabre chip and you will have it. At least for today.
Then you might want to tear that up and throw it away. Better to ask what is the best sounding dac implementation in a given price range and given how much diy work one is willing to do. That would much more likely be something of practical value to know.
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Thank you Mark
Indeed I was told about the subject of implementation, in addition to the specific chip that is chosen,
and I do understand and remember it.
Yet the purpose of this question, is to maybe filter out immediately DAC products that are based on a DAC chip, that has a parameter which is considered less preferable.
For example, If you see online a DAC product based on ES9023 (Voltage Output chip) and another DAC product based on ES9018K2M (Current Output chip, with the extra circuitry around it to make that current to voltage),
then you can mostlikely say that the ES9023 based DAC should be skipped.
Like you say, the DAC chip can tell the maximum quality you can get from a DAC product, even with a great implementation.
So knowing that you can rule out an ES9023 based DAC product, helps.
It spares you from ordering it and trying it and wasting money on it.
So in short,
the purpose of asking about those parameters, is simply to know how to filter out less preferable products,
while understanding it cannot tell the full answer regarding the sound quality about a product
Regarding
Actually I did..
I asked in another thread in another forum, what recommended DAC products (ready made) I can buy for ~100$.
I received some results,
for example:
- Khadas Tone, based on ES9038Q2M - 99$
- Schiit Modi 3, based on AK4490 - 99$
- Topping D30, based on CS4398 - 110$
This list tells us the Manufacturer, the DAC chip used, and the price.
Obviously it tells nothing about how good the implementation circuit around the chip is..
(one might deduce it from the product's Manufacturer, If he has an experiment with that mfrr..
but in my case I have no experience with either of these 3.. so I cannot know)
Do you maybe have an opinion about these 3?
Or can add another option?
Indeed I was told about the subject of implementation, in addition to the specific chip that is chosen,
and I do understand and remember it.
Yet the purpose of this question, is to maybe filter out immediately DAC products that are based on a DAC chip, that has a parameter which is considered less preferable.
For example, If you see online a DAC product based on ES9023 (Voltage Output chip) and another DAC product based on ES9018K2M (Current Output chip, with the extra circuitry around it to make that current to voltage),
then you can mostlikely say that the ES9023 based DAC should be skipped.
Like you say, the DAC chip can tell the maximum quality you can get from a DAC product, even with a great implementation.
So knowing that you can rule out an ES9023 based DAC product, helps.
It spares you from ordering it and trying it and wasting money on it.
So in short,
the purpose of asking about those parameters, is simply to know how to filter out less preferable products,
while understanding it cannot tell the full answer regarding the sound quality about a product
Regarding
Actually I did..
I asked in another thread in another forum, what recommended DAC products (ready made) I can buy for ~100$.
I received some results,
for example:
- Khadas Tone, based on ES9038Q2M - 99$
- Schiit Modi 3, based on AK4490 - 99$
- Topping D30, based on CS4398 - 110$
This list tells us the Manufacturer, the DAC chip used, and the price.
Obviously it tells nothing about how good the implementation circuit around the chip is..
(one might deduce it from the product's Manufacturer, If he has an experiment with that mfrr..
but in my case I have no experience with either of these 3.. so I cannot know)
Do you maybe have an opinion about these 3?
Or can add another option?
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Sure, I have an opinion. I think they are probably great deals in terms of a finished board for around $100. If $100 is the budget, they are probably great. However, the unfortunate truth about dacs given where our technology is today is that making a truly accurate one is hard, and not cheap to do. It is possible to make one that measures well in certain common tests for dacs. That alone is pretty impressive. However, dacs are complex devices and the tests we have for them don't directly correlate very well with how our auditory system works, at least for how brain DSP has self-organized in some people. In other words, the correlation between how a dac measures and how it sounds may be pretty good in some people, and rather poor in others. At least as we commonly tend to interpret the measurements. I wish things were simpler, but they just aren't at this stage.
Personally, my main dac is a Benchmark Media DAC-3. It measures extremely well and sounds really good too. It is on the Stereophile A+ equipment list. But, compared to $100, it costs almost an obscene amount and is very complex inside. To me, the $100 dacs would sound just awful, but to others they might sound quite good. There is a lot a variation in how people listen, and what they find to their auditory tastes. I prefer extremely low distortion and extremely high accuracy and detail. Can't get it for $100. No way.
I have been working on trying to get cost down for diy'ers willing to do some work. For around maybe $250 or so, one can make a pretty good dac, but somewhere short of DAC-3. Still far better sound the $100 dacs simply because fewer corners are cut.
However, besides all the work of diy'ing, I am only on around iteration 1.5 for what I am working on. On the other hand Tone Board is at least at version 13. So, a lot more optimization has gone on there. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that I can beat the sound quality of Tone Board. Can't stand the sound of simplistic SMPS implementations for +-15v myself, for one thing, and there are several things. Others don't seem to notice so much though.
To add to all the complexity and variables with dacs, the high cost of good ones, etc., there is the additional problem of trying to get access to a prospective dac to listen to before buying it. Seems pretty much impossible most of the time. As a result what people do is pick one and take a chance. Mostly that seems to work out with happy customers. They get something better than they had before, and they still have no idea what they are missing. In addition, people who buy things often look for confirming evidence that they made the right choice after the fact. That's what the research says. So, hard to say how much one can rely on owner sound quality reports for a $100 dac, a very low price for a good dac.
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History repeating
Pretty much the same response a certain Mr T.Loesch gave me when I was less than complimentary about the TDA1541A. In short, other dacs are available.
Pretty much the same response a certain Mr T.Loesch gave me when I was less than complimentary about the TDA1541A. In short, other dacs are available.
He might very well be right. I haven't heard a really good one myself, so can't say. Some people really like the sounds from times past. For someone who wants that experience a good NOS dac might be just the thing.
I don't get your conclusion though, what is 'other dacs are available' supposed to mean, or what does it mean to you?
The opinions on what is preferred vary very much. Each technique has its own set of advantages, disadvantages and opportunities to mess things up.
NOS: non-oversampling
Two subcategories:
NOS with analogue reconstruction filter: requires a relatively complicated analogue reconstruction filter, usually with poor phase response. No digital signal processing, so no chance to mess anything up on the digital side. Extremely good matching required in the DAC.
NOS without the analogue reconstruction filter: produces lots of ultrasonic images (spectral copies of the signal) and has a slight treble roll-off in the normal audio band. Still no digital signal processing, so no chance to mess anything up on the digital side. Extremely good matching required in the DAC.
Oversampling DACs: can suppress ultrasonic images with much less analogue filtering by shifting some of the filtering into the digital domain. Of course this means that there are opportunities to mess things up in the digital signal processing. If it is a multibit oversampling DAC, extremely good matching is still required in the DAC.
Delta-sigma or sigma-delta modulator: technique to get a good dynamic range out of a very simple DAC. It involves a high-speed digital feedback loop around a course quantizer (and possibly a digital dynamic element matching block) to much reduce the word length and the DAC's matching requirements. The DAC word length can even be reduced to 1 bit. It results in lots of ultrasonic noise and plenty of opportunities to mess things up on the digital side. On the analogue side, the main challenge is to ensure the ultrasonic noise doesn't end up somewhere where it shouldn't end up.
When I used the term NOS above, I was referring to its other sometimes meaning, New Old Stock. It refers to dacs (or other components) that are no longer made, but some people still try to find and use because they like them better than currrently made dacs. Sorry for any confusion. I probably should have been more clear.
From what I heard from people, such DACs are for example:
- TDA1541A S1 and S2
and
- AD1862 (which is 20bit)
Is it possible to get them today, somehow?
There are so many ways to skin a cat...
Voltage vs current out: not a parameter by itself. There are great sounding voltage out DAC (ak4399 comes to mind and the wm8741 isn't too bad sounding either). And you can easily mess up a current out DAC if the analog I/V isn't up to the task.
Power: again, it all depends. AC power gives you more room to do whatever you want than USB power for example. But it really comes down to how you implement each.
R2R vs delta-sigma: let's face it, all new high performance chips are delta sigma stuff. If you want to chase down old stock chips, beware of fake, especially for the more expensive ones.
A parameter to consider carefully is the quality of the digital filters inside ICs. Not all are equal.
Voltage vs current out: not a parameter by itself. There are great sounding voltage out DAC (ak4399 comes to mind and the wm8741 isn't too bad sounding either). And you can easily mess up a current out DAC if the analog I/V isn't up to the task.
Power: again, it all depends. AC power gives you more room to do whatever you want than USB power for example. But it really comes down to how you implement each.
R2R vs delta-sigma: let's face it, all new high performance chips are delta sigma stuff. If you want to chase down old stock chips, beware of fake, especially for the more expensive ones.
A parameter to consider carefully is the quality of the digital filters inside ICs. Not all are equal.
Thank you 00940, really interesting answer.
Why DAC products that are AC powered can give a better result?
Can you say a bit more about this?
Why DAC products that are AC powered can give a better result?
USB power gives you at best 5V @1A. That means that :
- you only have a power budget of 5W. That's a serious constrain on what you can do.
- all your rails, analog or digital are tied together at the gnd. Unless you use isolated DC-DC converters to power all stages.
- if you want to have regulation for a DAC running on 5V... you'll have to step up the voltage, with all the possible switching artifacts.
- if you want higher analog rails for the output stage.. same thing.
Starting with 230vac, you have a lot more flexibility. But you can also mess up, that's not difficult to do
- you only have a power budget of 5W. That's a serious constrain on what you can do.
- all your rails, analog or digital are tied together at the gnd. Unless you use isolated DC-DC converters to power all stages.
- if you want to have regulation for a DAC running on 5V... you'll have to step up the voltage, with all the possible switching artifacts.
- if you want higher analog rails for the output stage.. same thing.
Starting with 230vac, you have a lot more flexibility. But you can also mess up, that's not difficult to do
The 'standard' DAC maximum output voltage is 2V RMS, often unbalanced. 2V RMS is 6.28V pk-pk. It can be difficult to get 6.28V pk-pk unbalanced from a 5V supply rail. You need the supply rail higher than the pk-pk output, plus some headroom. 12-15V bipolar supplies are commonly used.spaceman5 said:
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