If you think Class D is not HiFi...you are fool

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#161
[Not at all. There are some people that WON'T like Class D technology. Size for size, it is probably the most efficient at what it does but, there is still a lot to be said for the traditional linear amp designs. I don't "get on my knees and worship class D at all" but, you have to move with the times. Lile I said in myearlier post, If it works for you, that's good enough. It's all very subjective.

Ricky.
 
#162
aha

Hi all.

I ve been reading the last posts and was thinking... if we move on the new improved class D and say, yes it is not all perfect and it loses something (in spatial definition, last nuance of tranzient emotion, some final detail on violin strings,...) compared to some A class or AB designs than gradualy we will be pushed by the industry we helped to built (forums do have greater influences on constructor that we think, some of them also emerged from here as solo audio constructors opponing to the local industry) to the point where a lot of very good, essential things from music will be lost. Without the next generation being aware of that. Remember the times when good tube amps where replaced by big macho AB class amps. I think we are much more focused and opened minded to not be misguided by specs and neat package.

but... khm, khm...I am still impatiently waiting to listen ucd180 moduls next week. just have my eyes and ears wide open. will post the experience.
 
#163
Ricky said:
[Not at all. There are some people that WON'T like Class D technology. Size for size, it is probably the most efficient at what it does but, there is still a lot to be said for the traditional linear amp designs. I don't "get on my knees and worship class D at all" but, you have to move with the times. Lile I said in myearlier post, If it works for you, that's good enough. It's all very subjective.

Ricky.
Click to expand...

Some people don't like water but still find they can't live without it 🙂

"Probably" the most efficient? This wild speculation has become rediculous.

Your only valide argument for not employing class d amps, is that you don't have to move with the times, stick with what you like, just like the tube guys, they know full well it's inferior and yet chose to stick with it because they like it.

It's not entirely subjective either, sometimes better is just better. It only becomes a subjective argument when they're in the same league which according to most it seems they aren't 🙂 I'm fine with that too.

To imply class d loses any sonic edge over any other class I find a bit much since even a cheap and poorly implemented class d amp excells in areas that one can only dream of with other classes of amps.

T11 I look forward to your first impressions.

Regards,
Chris
 
#164
classd4sure said:
To imply class d loses any sonic edge over any other class I find a bit much since even a cheap and poorly implemented class d amp excells in areas that one can only dream of with other classes of amps.
Click to expand...

Like what?

I keep saying that there's too much generalization around here...
Any class of amplification can be incompetently designed and sound bad.
The reverse is also true.
From what I've heard, class D didn't convince me, but I haven't heard what seems to be the mood right now.
Also, it's different to hear a standard commercial amp and a competently tweaked one or designed one.
I'm all in favour of good switching PSUs for a power amps (and there are very good ones), but switching the audio signal and passing it through inductors and caps still makes me stay away. 🙄

I'm very happy with the performance of class AB, anyway.
 
#166
carlosfm said:


Like what?

I keep saying that there's too much generalization around here...
Any class of amplification can be incompetently designed and sound bad.
The reverse is also true.
From what I've heard, class D didn't convince me, but I haven't heard what seems to be the mood right now.
Also, it's different to hear a standard commercial amp and a competently tweaked one or designed one.
I'm all in favour of good switching PSUs for a power amps (and there are very good ones), but switching the audio signal and passing it through inductors and caps still makes me stay away. 🙄

I'm very happy with the performance of class AB, anyway.
Click to expand...

All fair questions and remarks. It's been mentioned many times around here and I didn't want to repeat it for fear of seeming unoriginal or something but most seem to agree that what class D does with ease is provide you with a very dynamic soundstage, lots of air, and stunning detail, it really is amazing how effortless good class d makes getting that, and the best ones like UCD do it independant of load so it sounds nearly the same on my big cerwin vega 3 way to a 3.5" at 8 watts right down to a 1 1/4" 0.25 watt computer "beep" speaker.

If you listened to a variation like that with a ucd you'd be shocked just as everyone I've shown that too has been. What I believe they call(ed)l "timbre" virtually becomes a non issue, and you'd be further stunned by hearing the same amazing amount of air, with still a very surprising amount of detail comming that garbage computer speaker.

I haven't even yet had the pleasure of attempting that little test with a Hypex module but am working on it. Is it a tweaked to the hilt homebrew... far from it. It's a homebrew UCD based amp made p2p without so much as a scope, 98% of the parts were salvage, I've been enjoying it as my main single channel amp for months now. It's entirely musical and has a very relaxed feel and natural/real sound to it, with detail like I've never heard. I simply can't imagine having anything like that with similar build conditions/techniques. The only thing wrong with it is that the noise floor isn't what it should be, but my speakers are 98dB efficient, and it's the only time I notice it is with those. Output is 35 watts continuous.

That's what I mean when I say it's hard to miss with. However even worse designs can bring out the air and detail like never before, but maybe they won't be up to par in other aspects, all things not being equal.

Regards,
Chris
 
#169
Bgt said:
a bit old fashioned, are'nt we? just try it. Ofcourse the class AB does sound nice but wait until you hear the UCD's.
Click to expand...

Why would I be old fashioned?
Why would you be modern?
Why are you right and I'm wrong?
Why do I see formats and gear coming and going and people spending the $$$ because 'they' say it's the best thing since sliced bread?

For now I'm just sceptic, and I have the right to be.
Fair?
Tact amps sound bad to me...
If you offer me the UCD modules I'll try them.
Because now I'm busy with other things.
The amp is very good, I don't feel the need to change it.
For better? For worse?
Who knows?
Who cares?

PS: I suppose you have a class D preamp too? :bawling:
 
#170
hmmm
is there any class D amplifier at all that provides above 200W RMS at 8ohm with reasonal distortion at 20kHz (below 0.1%)

Personally I have not measure a sinbgle class D amp yet that have reasonable measurements at higher frequensies but just give me a name so such amp and I can measure it, but remember it will never come close to amps like Rotel 1090 and Nad 208
 
#171
Lazyworm said:
hmmm
is there any class D amplifier at all that provides above 200W RMS at 8ohm with reasonal distortion at 20kHz (below 0.1%)

Personally I have not measure a sinbgle class D amp yet that have reasonable measurements at higher frequensies but just give me a name so such amp and I can measure it, but remember it will never come close to amps like Rotel 1090 and Nad 208
Click to expand...

LOL....... if it can't come close then dont' measure it.
 
#172
Lazyworm said:
hmmm
is there any class D amplifier at all that provides above 200W RMS at 8ohm with reasonal distortion at 20kHz (below 0.1%)

Personally I have not measure a sinbgle class D amp yet that have reasonable measurements at higher frequensies but just give me a name so such amp and I can measure it, but remember it will never come close to amps like Rotel 1090 and Nad 208
Click to expand...


To all skeptics, just listen and you will see whether you like it or not. And, yes, the distortion can be low at high frequencies and high power. There are distortion graphs available in some of these threads and probably on the Hypex site if you search. There are loads of people here on the board that do not want to go back to other classes, well, they could all be wrong of course (but obviously I do not believe so), so why don't you try, it requires a relatively small investment or maybe there is someoe in the neighborhood with an UcD amp.

Best regards

Gertjan
 
#174
Lazyworm said:
hmmm
is there any class D amplifier at all that provides above 200W RMS at 8ohm with reasonal distortion at 20kHz (below 0.1%)

Personally I have not measure a sinbgle class D amp yet that have reasonable measurements at higher frequensies but just give me a name so such amp and I can measure it, but remember it will never come close to amps like Rotel 1090 and Nad 208
Click to expand...


I remember reading through some Tripath documents, and they mentioned something about testing that would be different from normal traditional amps.
 
#176
I built two monoblocks using UcD400's . Comparing them with the best class A or AB can offer is to say the least unfair. They don't even come close. By comparaison, a Bryston 4BSST sounds anemic, muddy and filled with helium. I drive them directly from my Cary 303-300.

I was a sceptic. I'm now a beleiver.



An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
 
#177
Hello all!
I dont mean to diss Class D overall but I have measured on TacT and hmm another one and they have dissapointed me alot.

at the moment I am trying to modify the Behringer 2500 wich is a
traditional class G (H) amplifier just like Nad 208.

It was good out of the box but can be alot better with some small means, it is really giving the +500W 8ohm RMS as the papers say.
but you must replace the fan (wich make alot of noice and I am trying papst tomorrow) or remove it, out of the box you can just turn of the fan but since we want to give it a little higher Bias we reall need cooling.

I post link to the measurements on the Rotel 1090 and this behringer 2500, it is a Swedish site so you maybe dont understand the text but distortion speaks for itself, the measurements on Behringer is out of the box and can be alot better with a little modifications 🙂
like the first distortion on lower power is long gone after we increased the Bias

http://www.faktiskt.se/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=7731

Rotel 1090
http://www.faktiskt.se/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6882

Best regards
Jonas
 
#179
Hello Jan Peter!
That is looking really good, is it at 1kHz and in that case how is it changing distortion with frequency?
The D amps Ive measured on so far is starting to show the bad side from 10kHz and up.

how much have the amp dropped at 20Hz and 20kHz in dB?
 
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