Whats shown in the first diagram of that thread lacks real (not a cap) isolation. 21st century gear should not be directly mains powered.
KBK wrote:
This is very interesting.
As SMPS digital sources use only a few watts and as they better be powered from an independent balanced AC unit to increase isolation, what would be the minimum recommended VA for a balanced isolation TX???
(to save some $)
Thanks.
M
This is very interesting.
As SMPS digital sources use only a few watts and as they better be powered from an independent balanced AC unit to increase isolation, what would be the minimum recommended VA for a balanced isolation TX???
(to save some $)Thanks.
M
It's always been my knee jerk assumption that the large field, low current situation regarding tubes was one of the basic reasons they benefit tremendously from physical layout, component choices and vibration control. The field may be large, but it is easily interfered with, and influenced. No mass.
The SMPS, and Tripath circuits and the like, are all high mass, low field. Thus,they benefit the most (knee jerk analysis) from drive situations that approach infinity on the current side of things.
So, in essence, I would surmise, off the cuff, that a rather high current tranny might work best for the tripath and other 'high speed' current drawing gear. With this stuff- it comes down to the transient current draw stability in a plethora of situations, or stability across a wide bandwidth of draw frequency and level. This of course, requires 'Big Iron'.
I used a 2.5kva re-wired isolation transformer, in the 75lb range, for this experiment.
I would think,and have in practice found that people selling gear on ebay don't know much about balanced power and many of the isolation transformers can be re-wired for balanced AC. I've been looking at medical islation grade transformers, and anything made by POWERVAR, or the MATRIX brand of UPS's from APC. I find the specs of the individual components on the net, and figure out whch transformers are actually capable of being re-wired, and buy them on the cheap.
Current drive capacity of the transformer used, usually turns out to need to be -at least- 4X that of the full consumption of the system, otherwise bandwidth issues will rear their ugly head, in terms of the sound heard.
The SMPS, and Tripath circuits and the like, are all high mass, low field. Thus,they benefit the most (knee jerk analysis) from drive situations that approach infinity on the current side of things.
So, in essence, I would surmise, off the cuff, that a rather high current tranny might work best for the tripath and other 'high speed' current drawing gear. With this stuff- it comes down to the transient current draw stability in a plethora of situations, or stability across a wide bandwidth of draw frequency and level. This of course, requires 'Big Iron'.
I used a 2.5kva re-wired isolation transformer, in the 75lb range, for this experiment.
I would think,and have in practice found that people selling gear on ebay don't know much about balanced power and many of the isolation transformers can be re-wired for balanced AC. I've been looking at medical islation grade transformers, and anything made by POWERVAR, or the MATRIX brand of UPS's from APC. I find the specs of the individual components on the net, and figure out whch transformers are actually capable of being re-wired, and buy them on the cheap.
Current drive capacity of the transformer used, usually turns out to need to be -at least- 4X that of the full consumption of the system, otherwise bandwidth issues will rear their ugly head, in terms of the sound heard.
Thanks KBK for the explanation 🙂
I only managed to get a pair of 1KVA Tx to drive a pair of UCD180 amps, each, to remain on the cheap. Evident gain in resolution. No dynamic constraint noticed.
My previous question regarded low power digital sources wich use a few watt to run. Maybe a 300VA exclusive isolation Tx will be good for SMPSed digital sources?
I can order a 2.5KVA, EI, balanced iso Tx for around US$200 (in the future, I mean). Would be bifilar wound be better for secondaries?
Thanks for your help,
M
I only managed to get a pair of 1KVA Tx to drive a pair of UCD180 amps, each, to remain on the cheap. Evident gain in resolution. No dynamic constraint noticed.
My previous question regarded low power digital sources wich use a few watt to run. Maybe a 300VA exclusive isolation Tx will be good for SMPSed digital sources?
I can order a 2.5KVA, EI, balanced iso Tx for around US$200 (in the future, I mean). Would be bifilar wound be better for secondaries?
Thanks for your help,
M
KBK,
Could you lay the gobble-de-gook on a bit thicker? There was one or two sentences that were almost intelligible.
Anybody here know where the amp portion of an amp gets its power?
GEEZE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
🙄 🙄 🙄
Could you lay the gobble-de-gook on a bit thicker? There was one or two sentences that were almost intelligible.
Anybody here know where the amp portion of an amp gets its power?
GEEZE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
🙄 🙄 🙄
Hey, the explaination was as clear as a sweet, clean bell, if you wuz listenin'.
Nobody said I had to speak in engineering gobble-de-gookspeak.
"Oh stewardess! I speak Jive!" -Airplane
Nobody said I had to speak in engineering gobble-de-gookspeak.
"Oh stewardess! I speak Jive!" -Airplane
Indeed, if you happen to be conversant in 'Stoner'.😉KBK said:
I found your metaphors to be absolutely charming, but, IMO, bearing little resemblance to reality.
KBK said:
I'd certainly tend to agree that the 'high mass, low potential' description is applicable to the standard linear supply for a power amplifier, with the many amp spikes hitting the rectifier bridge for a 100watt sand state am made worse by the inductive leakage of the transformer and the typical philosophy of the more capacitance the better. But I don't think it applicable to describing most SMPSs. A smps is connected directly to the mains, without the leakage inductance to cause 'kickback' spikes at rectifier turnoff, and at least in comparison to a linear supply for a sandstate component has minimal capacitance connected to the [initial] rectifiers. Sorta sounds [save for the multistage filtering] like a typical hollow state capacitive input ps to me??????, but without the problems associated with a power transformer leakage inductance. [Which is why some folks snub their transformer's secondary.]
This is not to say that smps do not have their own specific problems when it comes the voltage production in the following stages, the actual switching through the ferrite transformer and subsequent rectification. That produces significant common mode noise. But that is far removed from the purview of power conditioning, and best dealt within the powersupply.
This is not to say that SMPS powered components do not benefit from proper power conditioning. Quite the contrary. I've found smps components benefit to the same degree from conditioning as tube source components. The Nuforce amps and preamps are unlistenable via my straight NYC mains, but meteorically rise to mediocre with excellent power conditioning. Similarly, a Modwright preamp, with its choke and regulated supplies, goes from very good, to stunning (constrained by your subjective preferences).
My experience is that SMPS powered components are rather easy to power condition externally as they typically don't have the massive current spikes from the mains as linear supplies, and have less of a tendancy to saturate inductive components like transformers, which often constrain dynamics.
If's I wuz
If I was prone to ego issues, I'd attempt to stammer a backpedal out of this, but, nah, I'll just say that charming it may be, but... they are still accurate descriptors which directly apply and come straight out of electrical terminology. And looking at it with the rose colored glasses for sec or two, can bring about possibly... a moment of insight for the overtly mathematically and linearly impaired? Ie, way too much of the book, and not enough of the grokking of the theory?
Then we go sit outside in the sun and the breeze, sit down in our ancient Greek beanbag chairs, smoke a big fat one with Plato and the boyz, and get down on the discussion of how we are all figments of our entirely non-existent imaginations.
What I remember about the most effective profs and teachers, was their nearly unanimous characteristic of having the capacity to spout what it was we needed to learn and know..in the most diverse and bizzare and multi-faceted terms possible - if need be. To spout electrical, methematical, engineering and philosphical terms, couched in as many different languages, descriptors and plethora of 'visualizations' as is humanly possible. We all know that the intuitive eureka moment does not take one singular shape, as all our heads are polarized differently, in terms of how information enters it - and percolates. I prefer the understanding which leads to more clarity, over the passing of the mathematically oriented test systems which generally try to pose as 'systems of education' as they exist today. The best profs didn't want us to pass the tests at all, they wanted us to know, to understand. It is sad that there are so few of them.
So, in essence, in my opinion, the descriptors of field and mass are perfectly accurate. 😎 I in no way think of my-self as more informed than the next guy, I simply have always lived and existed by that point that the profs were trying to get across. Knowing what the numbers mean, is far, far far more important than being able to calulate them to the nth degree. It is even possible to say that, depending on the person, anything beyond the basic mathematics, is not nessessary, when it comes to making great sounding gear. One must merely understand the concepts in as large and as encompassing a way as possible. I'd even go so far as to say that depending on the person, the higher math and the calculus become irrelevant. Or, maybe the understanding of the calculus would take them further down the road. Or it could actually 'get in their way'. Who knows? Mileage will vary. In my early teens.. I saw the everyone went down the same road. And they all arrived at the same wall. And they all clawed at it the same way, and they all ended up in the same mud. Clawing. At each other and at unyeilding walls. Inching along, in a flawed system. Flawed, as it was and is obviuously unyeilding. Flawed, because big breakthoughs and 'next steps' are not forthcoming. This means the basics are wrong. The longer it takes to figure something out or the bigger the wall infront of you, the more basic the mistake, back at the start.
Even a brief glimpse of ancient writings and texts, shows that much of our conceptual considerations surrounding the physical world in all of it's ramifications have been well covered before and well understood before. We try to re-invent the wheel in the physics of modern mathematical analysis and the like, and forget the basics and that which matters to the human form. That which was as effective then..and lost to the mists of time. Always move forward, but don't even remotely dismiss the past. Whatever works for you, as long as it actually is working.
No thanks I said. I'll make my own road, as that modern one, with a 100 years or more of repetitive history behind and on it, was obviously not yeilding much. Slow going and slogging on that road, and I'm not interested in covering things the people have done before, if it all leads to the same mud pit, which the overview clearly illustrates as the existant condition. Try something new, (or very old) I said. So, I deliberately twisted my self education into something else. Yes, I figured this out when I was 12-13, and headed down a much more invigorating road. And every step of the way has been either highly entertaining, or unusual and thought provoking. Not for everyone, of course.
If I was prone to ego issues, I'd attempt to stammer a backpedal out of this, but, nah, I'll just say that charming it may be, but... they are still accurate descriptors which directly apply and come straight out of electrical terminology. And looking at it with the rose colored glasses for sec or two, can bring about possibly... a moment of insight for the overtly mathematically and linearly impaired? Ie, way too much of the book, and not enough of the grokking of the theory?
Then we go sit outside in the sun and the breeze, sit down in our ancient Greek beanbag chairs, smoke a big fat one with Plato and the boyz, and get down on the discussion of how we are all figments of our entirely non-existent imaginations.
What I remember about the most effective profs and teachers, was their nearly unanimous characteristic of having the capacity to spout what it was we needed to learn and know..in the most diverse and bizzare and multi-faceted terms possible - if need be. To spout electrical, methematical, engineering and philosphical terms, couched in as many different languages, descriptors and plethora of 'visualizations' as is humanly possible. We all know that the intuitive eureka moment does not take one singular shape, as all our heads are polarized differently, in terms of how information enters it - and percolates. I prefer the understanding which leads to more clarity, over the passing of the mathematically oriented test systems which generally try to pose as 'systems of education' as they exist today. The best profs didn't want us to pass the tests at all, they wanted us to know, to understand. It is sad that there are so few of them.
So, in essence, in my opinion, the descriptors of field and mass are perfectly accurate. 😎 I in no way think of my-self as more informed than the next guy, I simply have always lived and existed by that point that the profs were trying to get across. Knowing what the numbers mean, is far, far far more important than being able to calulate them to the nth degree. It is even possible to say that, depending on the person, anything beyond the basic mathematics, is not nessessary, when it comes to making great sounding gear. One must merely understand the concepts in as large and as encompassing a way as possible. I'd even go so far as to say that depending on the person, the higher math and the calculus become irrelevant. Or, maybe the understanding of the calculus would take them further down the road. Or it could actually 'get in their way'. Who knows? Mileage will vary. In my early teens.. I saw the everyone went down the same road. And they all arrived at the same wall. And they all clawed at it the same way, and they all ended up in the same mud. Clawing. At each other and at unyeilding walls. Inching along, in a flawed system. Flawed, as it was and is obviuously unyeilding. Flawed, because big breakthoughs and 'next steps' are not forthcoming. This means the basics are wrong. The longer it takes to figure something out or the bigger the wall infront of you, the more basic the mistake, back at the start.
Even a brief glimpse of ancient writings and texts, shows that much of our conceptual considerations surrounding the physical world in all of it's ramifications have been well covered before and well understood before. We try to re-invent the wheel in the physics of modern mathematical analysis and the like, and forget the basics and that which matters to the human form. That which was as effective then..and lost to the mists of time. Always move forward, but don't even remotely dismiss the past. Whatever works for you, as long as it actually is working.
No thanks I said. I'll make my own road, as that modern one, with a 100 years or more of repetitive history behind and on it, was obviously not yeilding much. Slow going and slogging on that road, and I'm not interested in covering things the people have done before, if it all leads to the same mud pit, which the overview clearly illustrates as the existant condition. Try something new, (or very old) I said. So, I deliberately twisted my self education into something else. Yes, I figured this out when I was 12-13, and headed down a much more invigorating road. And every step of the way has been either highly entertaining, or unusual and thought provoking. Not for everyone, of course.
Common mode chokes are much smaller than transformers, far less likely to induce hernias.
Its obvious that their design is for elimination of common mode noise, but the addition of flanking capacitors adds transverse mode noise attenuation.
We're all familiar with them in shiny metal boxes (corcoms, etc...) and probably most consumer products with switching supples. And generally, they don't do much for the sound, or rather, feeding them from a really good conditioner, either balancing or non transformer based, depending on your power quality, generally yeilds substantial subjective improvements.
But as a generalization, those cmc filters already in the component are there to prevent noise from getting out, in order to pass governmental emmission tests.
[I've heard the argument the the damage wrought by switching supplies is the noise it propogates to other components on the same AC line, but in experiments where all other components were isolated via their own cascaded transformer balancing conditioners, it was conclued that the conditioner substantially improved the fed component, itself. This was also confirmed with an Audience Adept which isolates all components]
And among the very best conditioners I've been able to experiment with is that Audiance Adept. Its a straightforward 'accross the line' large input cap, with 2 small line to ground shunt caps, feeding parallel toroidal CMCs, each terminated with another, smaller cap accross the line to an outlet.
[I mention the Adept as an illustration of subjective/objective simplicity and efficacy, not for a discussion of its value]
While I've always assumed powerconditioning is the province of a large, separate conditioner(s).
I've recently be mucking about with a $110 Chineese DAC, the Zhaolu 2.0, changing to more appropriate opamps, simplifying the singnal path, etc... and was impressed when we tested it sraight into the wall in a Manhattan apartment with wretched power. It simply did not benefit to as great an extent from quality powerconditioning as we would have expected based upon other similar components.
Looking at the PS helps to discern why. The unit draws 12va through a rather nice R-core 50va transformer. Its hum inducing EM field would be almost as small as a toroid, but the bandwidth and capacitive coupling is far smaller. Very impressive for a inexpensive component. That transformer is fed by its own filter consisting of a CMC flanked by 2 X caps. Unfinished experiments have shown that improved caps as well as a higher inductance CMC (the Panasonic 450/21V series are a solder in replacements), bring additional benefits, closer to the best conditioners.
Among passive methods, maybe the reactive leakage 'cancellation' provided by balanced/technical power brings that last iota of power conditioning capabilities. But I believe we can get awfully close in our own diy efforts hopefully without the weight and bulk.
Then again, my current system uses a cascaded balancing pair of transformers for each component
Its obvious that their design is for elimination of common mode noise, but the addition of flanking capacitors adds transverse mode noise attenuation.
We're all familiar with them in shiny metal boxes (corcoms, etc...) and probably most consumer products with switching supples. And generally, they don't do much for the sound, or rather, feeding them from a really good conditioner, either balancing or non transformer based, depending on your power quality, generally yeilds substantial subjective improvements.
But as a generalization, those cmc filters already in the component are there to prevent noise from getting out, in order to pass governmental emmission tests.
[I've heard the argument the the damage wrought by switching supplies is the noise it propogates to other components on the same AC line, but in experiments where all other components were isolated via their own cascaded transformer balancing conditioners, it was conclued that the conditioner substantially improved the fed component, itself. This was also confirmed with an Audience Adept which isolates all components]
And among the very best conditioners I've been able to experiment with is that Audiance Adept. Its a straightforward 'accross the line' large input cap, with 2 small line to ground shunt caps, feeding parallel toroidal CMCs, each terminated with another, smaller cap accross the line to an outlet.
[I mention the Adept as an illustration of subjective/objective simplicity and efficacy, not for a discussion of its value]
While I've always assumed powerconditioning is the province of a large, separate conditioner(s).
I've recently be mucking about with a $110 Chineese DAC, the Zhaolu 2.0, changing to more appropriate opamps, simplifying the singnal path, etc... and was impressed when we tested it sraight into the wall in a Manhattan apartment with wretched power. It simply did not benefit to as great an extent from quality powerconditioning as we would have expected based upon other similar components.
Looking at the PS helps to discern why. The unit draws 12va through a rather nice R-core 50va transformer. Its hum inducing EM field would be almost as small as a toroid, but the bandwidth and capacitive coupling is far smaller. Very impressive for a inexpensive component. That transformer is fed by its own filter consisting of a CMC flanked by 2 X caps. Unfinished experiments have shown that improved caps as well as a higher inductance CMC (the Panasonic 450/21V series are a solder in replacements), bring additional benefits, closer to the best conditioners.
Among passive methods, maybe the reactive leakage 'cancellation' provided by balanced/technical power brings that last iota of power conditioning capabilities. But I believe we can get awfully close in our own diy efforts hopefully without the weight and bulk.
Then again, my current system uses a cascaded balancing pair of transformers for each component
You speak of profs as though you had actually sat before a few...
I can't recall a prof that wouldn't have bruised you quite publicly for this meandering gibberish and in the course of doing so encourage you to drop out or shape up.
I can't recall a prof that wouldn't have bruised you quite publicly for this meandering gibberish and in the course of doing so encourage you to drop out or shape up.
question on balanced power
Can this be used on equipment that doesn't have a 3 prong plug but just a 2 prong as in some digital equipment?
any links to basic information on balanced power? I did read the link provided earlier in the thread.
Thanks!!
Can this be used on equipment that doesn't have a 3 prong plug but just a 2 prong as in some digital equipment?
any links to basic information on balanced power? I did read the link provided earlier in the thread.
Thanks!!
Yes but it requires that you establish a new ground connection (to earth)
What type of digital equipment?
Haven't found anything on non-commercial sites... or sites that explain anything in real terms.
🙁
What type of digital equipment?
Haven't found anything on non-commercial sites... or sites that explain anything in real terms.
🙁
poobah said:You speak of profs as though you had actually sat before a few...
I can't recall a prof that wouldn't have bruised you quite publicly for this meandering gibberish and in the course of doing so encourage you to drop out or shape up.
On the other hand Poobah, no-one ever said all/most Profs were or are correct in their behaviour or how they impress themselves into the world at large. Man, what insectoid critter is bargaining for position in your nether regions today?
An old axiom: Those that can't......teach. So, in essence, the larger majority of profs..are wannabes. It is the rare one that is there because they love to see the light go on in others.
I would have to conclude then that any prof who condoned or encouraged scatterbrained nonsense would be one of the "can't do" types. Probably deeply in touch with their inner child (and everyone else's) as well.
There may indeed be a bug in me bum. If so, I would guess we are old friends.
🙂
There may indeed be a bug in me bum. If so, I would guess we are old friends.
🙂
cd players
anything digital...
i.e. cd players, dacs etc.. don't most have just a 2 prong power cord?
or doesn't this really matter with balanced power if the component is UL rated etc...?
finally, if i were to build small balanced power modules for things other than power amps, what could the smallest 115:60/60 transformer rating be? 500VA? 250VA?
thinking like a power cord to dc blocker to transformer to EMI filter to 1 outlet.
so that i can build one per audio component.
my cdplayer is an Arcam 35VA... oh and i did notice that it DOES have a 3 prong plug.
Don't some cheaper cd players have weird supplies to cut costs? unsure exactly what type of supplies they are, but would these work as well?
thanks!!
anything digital...
i.e. cd players, dacs etc.. don't most have just a 2 prong power cord?
or doesn't this really matter with balanced power if the component is UL rated etc...?
finally, if i were to build small balanced power modules for things other than power amps, what could the smallest 115:60/60 transformer rating be? 500VA? 250VA?
thinking like a power cord to dc blocker to transformer to EMI filter to 1 outlet.
so that i can build one per audio component.
my cdplayer is an Arcam 35VA... oh and i did notice that it DOES have a 3 prong plug.
Don't some cheaper cd players have weird supplies to cut costs? unsure exactly what type of supplies they are, but would these work as well?
thanks!!
Were I to employ balanced AC... it would be to minimise ground and the audible effects it can have in terms of ground noise.
As rdf has pointed out this method IS being used in new studio builds etc... You can bet that these installations are establishing a new and local ground by driving copper rods in the ground etc...
Without a new and local ground... I see no reason for this. It merely moves the insertion point for ground noise a few feet farther down down the SAME wire.
DC blocking is done to prevent saturation in the toroidal power supplies of equipment. If you don't have the hum problem or toroids; avoid it. DC blockers are not trivial and can introduce their own set of problems.
EMI filters... I am all for them. The common modes chokes are little wonders in avoiding ground pollution in the first place. The line (and ground) gets dirtier with every piece of gear we add. And this hash can fly right through power supplies and intermodulate, or be heard, within the sudio spectrum.
The key here is find credible text written by someone with nothing to sell... stress credible... stress nothing to sell.
😉
As rdf has pointed out this method IS being used in new studio builds etc... You can bet that these installations are establishing a new and local ground by driving copper rods in the ground etc...
Without a new and local ground... I see no reason for this. It merely moves the insertion point for ground noise a few feet farther down down the SAME wire.
DC blocking is done to prevent saturation in the toroidal power supplies of equipment. If you don't have the hum problem or toroids; avoid it. DC blockers are not trivial and can introduce their own set of problems.
EMI filters... I am all for them. The common modes chokes are little wonders in avoiding ground pollution in the first place. The line (and ground) gets dirtier with every piece of gear we add. And this hash can fly right through power supplies and intermodulate, or be heard, within the sudio spectrum.
The key here is find credible text written by someone with nothing to sell... stress credible... stress nothing to sell.
😉
Here's one of the kinds of trannys I speak of.
It has dual primary,and dual secondary taps.
240 primary taps, and 240 secondary. Multiples on the primary so you can tune to get a better match with your local power ccompany, who likely never has the correct voltage. The only thing I don't like about it, is that it has no shield.
It can be used with 240V on the input 480V primary, and use the 240V output taps, this will give 120 or 60-0-60 on the output. Or, use the 240 primary at 120, and use the 240 outputs and get the same 60-0-60 again. Your choice. In any case, the transformer will correctly need to be derated by 50%, and then add about 5%, maybe 10% more back in, as the (original) overall rating also includes thermal considerations. The one in the auction, is rated at 75Kva, wich means you get half that, at 37.5kva. Then, add in that approx 10% again, and you are at about 40Kva, capacity overall. That's 40Kva balanced power. Should be enough for most tripath 2024 amps. Might have to get another tranny for the other channel.
New in box, place a bid, $100.00 starting, very unlikely to go much -if any- higher. This is why I say, why by expensive toroids? why buy anything BUT an industrial unit???? This would be more than enough for most guys who have even 20k watts in a HT system or the like. that's 120V, at nearly 300 amps draw. Shouldn't suffer too much from transient current draw issues. Why sit around waiting for a stupid Topaz brand transformer or the like, when these things are always on the 'bay? At 1/4 of the price of the Topaz, and 10X the value and usefulness.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Square-D-Dry-Ty...5QQihZ007QQcategoryZ42881QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
If you are looking to merely experiment and see what the fuss is about, then this might be the unit for you, same wiring considerations as mentioned above.
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-5-KVA-Dry-Typ...ryZ42881QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
It has dual primary,and dual secondary taps.
240 primary taps, and 240 secondary. Multiples on the primary so you can tune to get a better match with your local power ccompany, who likely never has the correct voltage. The only thing I don't like about it, is that it has no shield.
It can be used with 240V on the input 480V primary, and use the 240V output taps, this will give 120 or 60-0-60 on the output. Or, use the 240 primary at 120, and use the 240 outputs and get the same 60-0-60 again. Your choice. In any case, the transformer will correctly need to be derated by 50%, and then add about 5%, maybe 10% more back in, as the (original) overall rating also includes thermal considerations. The one in the auction, is rated at 75Kva, wich means you get half that, at 37.5kva. Then, add in that approx 10% again, and you are at about 40Kva, capacity overall. That's 40Kva balanced power. Should be enough for most tripath 2024 amps. Might have to get another tranny for the other channel.
New in box, place a bid, $100.00 starting, very unlikely to go much -if any- higher. This is why I say, why by expensive toroids? why buy anything BUT an industrial unit???? This would be more than enough for most guys who have even 20k watts in a HT system or the like. that's 120V, at nearly 300 amps draw. Shouldn't suffer too much from transient current draw issues. Why sit around waiting for a stupid Topaz brand transformer or the like, when these things are always on the 'bay? At 1/4 of the price of the Topaz, and 10X the value and usefulness.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Square-D-Dry-Ty...5QQihZ007QQcategoryZ42881QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
If you are looking to merely experiment and see what the fuss is about, then this might be the unit for you, same wiring considerations as mentioned above.
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-5-KVA-Dry-Typ...ryZ42881QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
Re: cd players
AudioGeek,
Mains grounds are insidious things. They pop up where least expected. You might have a 2 prong powered component with no obvious mains ground connection. But the power ground and the signal ground are connected, and the signal ground is often connected to the chassis, and that signal gound is connected (obviously) to the rca connectors, which are connected to other components which may have their signal ground connected to mains ground..... It really depends on the specific implementation of the individual components and the fact that they're connected to yet other components. You really have to look at the implementation. The typical cure for the rational audiophile facing ground loop problems is to leave all components with mains ground to chassis connections extant (this is a safety issue that applies to all components not 'certified' for non grounded connection), but only connect the signal ground to the mains ground at one central point, typically the preamplifier. It also means no 34ga wires for the signal grounds on your interconnects..... the idea being to minimize potentials between signal grounds.
And yes, balanced power can also minimized reactive leakage to chassis among all components fed by it (or its common ground) so also minimizes ground loops and noise.
With regards to source components, I use those cascaded secondary to secondary transformers, and use the dual winding primary with a grounded ceter tap on the output transformer to derive balanced AC. For feeding components drawing up to 45 watts (higher with components with switching supplies) I use surplus 'World Power' (made by Signal, Tamura, Triad, MCI, etc...) transformers. Their Signal # is A41-28-175. Wired secondary to secondary with a 18uf cap accross the secondaries, providing massive common mode noise rejection via the 2 transformers as well as transverse mode noise attenuation via that large cap working with connected secondaries, far beyond what can be done with line to ground caps, even off balanced windings.
The reason for the downrating is twofold.
1. 2 transformer cascaded, with one of them working in reverse, provides poor transformer voltage regulation, and its not that unit provides poorly conditioned power, it that that increasing power draw drops the output voltage. This is not as problematic with SMPS powersupplies, as they typically operate quite happily on 85-140vac and 180 -260vac.
2. The transformers are downrated when providing 120vac balanced from 240v windings. The current ratings are the constraint. This is not a problem for folks in the 220-240vac world.
For components drawing up to 20va, on 120vac via linear supplies (30va for SMPS) I use 2 100va 'Compact Power' (Signal type 241, available from those same usual vendors.
Hundreds of these diy Felicia conditioners have been built, and nary a complaint of constrained dynamics when powering appropriate draw source components, including SMPS powered, as long as power guidelines were followed. Others have used them to power Teac Tripath based poweramps as well as some gainKlowns. They've reported very positive results, but one has to wonder.....
And for my poweramp, I'm building a 5kva transformer feeding a 3.8kva transformer producing balanced split phase 240vac that feeds a poweramp whose primaries are reconfigured to take 240vac.
While I've used and built single transformer balanced conditioners, they really can't provied the equal in transverse (or common) mode noise attenuation. It might be that my high noise NYC environment makes makes noise attenuation of far greater importance than the benefits of reactive noise 'cancellation'. Dunno. This is also why my interest is in exploring conditioning without extra isolation/balancing transformers. My wife wants to know if those big sucker transformers are breeding to produce all those smaller transformers......
FWIW
AudioGeek said:
AudioGeek,
Mains grounds are insidious things. They pop up where least expected. You might have a 2 prong powered component with no obvious mains ground connection. But the power ground and the signal ground are connected, and the signal ground is often connected to the chassis, and that signal gound is connected (obviously) to the rca connectors, which are connected to other components which may have their signal ground connected to mains ground..... It really depends on the specific implementation of the individual components and the fact that they're connected to yet other components. You really have to look at the implementation. The typical cure for the rational audiophile facing ground loop problems is to leave all components with mains ground to chassis connections extant (this is a safety issue that applies to all components not 'certified' for non grounded connection), but only connect the signal ground to the mains ground at one central point, typically the preamplifier. It also means no 34ga wires for the signal grounds on your interconnects..... the idea being to minimize potentials between signal grounds.
And yes, balanced power can also minimized reactive leakage to chassis among all components fed by it (or its common ground) so also minimizes ground loops and noise.
With regards to source components, I use those cascaded secondary to secondary transformers, and use the dual winding primary with a grounded ceter tap on the output transformer to derive balanced AC. For feeding components drawing up to 45 watts (higher with components with switching supplies) I use surplus 'World Power' (made by Signal, Tamura, Triad, MCI, etc...) transformers. Their Signal # is A41-28-175. Wired secondary to secondary with a 18uf cap accross the secondaries, providing massive common mode noise rejection via the 2 transformers as well as transverse mode noise attenuation via that large cap working with connected secondaries, far beyond what can be done with line to ground caps, even off balanced windings.
The reason for the downrating is twofold.
1. 2 transformer cascaded, with one of them working in reverse, provides poor transformer voltage regulation, and its not that unit provides poorly conditioned power, it that that increasing power draw drops the output voltage. This is not as problematic with SMPS powersupplies, as they typically operate quite happily on 85-140vac and 180 -260vac.
2. The transformers are downrated when providing 120vac balanced from 240v windings. The current ratings are the constraint. This is not a problem for folks in the 220-240vac world.
For components drawing up to 20va, on 120vac via linear supplies (30va for SMPS) I use 2 100va 'Compact Power' (Signal type 241, available from those same usual vendors.
Hundreds of these diy Felicia conditioners have been built, and nary a complaint of constrained dynamics when powering appropriate draw source components, including SMPS powered, as long as power guidelines were followed. Others have used them to power Teac Tripath based poweramps as well as some gainKlowns. They've reported very positive results, but one has to wonder.....
And for my poweramp, I'm building a 5kva transformer feeding a 3.8kva transformer producing balanced split phase 240vac that feeds a poweramp whose primaries are reconfigured to take 240vac.
While I've used and built single transformer balanced conditioners, they really can't provied the equal in transverse (or common) mode noise attenuation. It might be that my high noise NYC environment makes makes noise attenuation of far greater importance than the benefits of reactive noise 'cancellation'. Dunno. This is also why my interest is in exploring conditioning without extra isolation/balancing transformers. My wife wants to know if those big sucker transformers are breeding to produce all those smaller transformers......
FWIW
Hey KBK,
A local expressed an interest in adding a big mutha balancing conditioner to his already existing source powering Felicias. Your post prompted me to have a gander at Ebay, where he just bought 2 Signal DU-7.5 isolation trannys for $61 -
http://belfuse.com/Data/DBObject/pgs28_29.pdf
yes, he realizes the shipping will probably be tripple the purchase price.
Boy.... is his wife gonna be ticked.
Thanks again,
Paul
A local expressed an interest in adding a big mutha balancing conditioner to his already existing source powering Felicias. Your post prompted me to have a gander at Ebay, where he just bought 2 Signal DU-7.5 isolation trannys for $61 -
http://belfuse.com/Data/DBObject/pgs28_29.pdf
yes, he realizes the shipping will probably be tripple the purchase price.
Boy.... is his wife gonna be ticked.
Thanks again,
Paul
wow. I'd of bought them If I'da seen them! That was a sweet deal. Oh well, I can go home and hug my Moore preamp, I'll be ok.
edit: wait a minute..is that the guy who was sellling them to folks, so they could run long lines out to far away places on their property, and then step down again? fug! I was gonna buy those. darn 🙂
It will be the biggest tweak he's ever done, at the lowest cost. Life balances out though. They are pigs..and they are ugly. He'll likely have to put them in containers or design something to protect the terminals. Sadly, he'll be limited to about 30-35 ampsAC, on each. what a shame. 😛
this is one of those tweaks, guys. that you can't really knock it, unles you've tried it. Once you try it, ..it is very unlikely you'll ever knock it!
edit: wait a minute..is that the guy who was sellling them to folks, so they could run long lines out to far away places on their property, and then step down again? fug! I was gonna buy those. darn 🙂
It will be the biggest tweak he's ever done, at the lowest cost. Life balances out though. They are pigs..and they are ugly. He'll likely have to put them in containers or design something to protect the terminals. Sadly, he'll be limited to about 30-35 ampsAC, on each. what a shame. 😛
this is one of those tweaks, guys. that you can't really knock it, unles you've tried it. Once you try it, ..it is very unlikely you'll ever knock it!
- Status
- Not open for further replies.