great pics and info directdriver, thanks for that! I got lucky that my stepdown voltage transformer for my dual drive <belt-idler> didn`t cause any hum or other nasty`s and I think I am hearing better sound <imaging> than I was running it at 120 volts. I ran the table overvoltage for 5 or so years
as a present owner of 2 direct drives and one dual drive table I can say this. On the TRIO 350 dual drive I have used at least 8 different cartridges on it trying to find the special one. They all sounded special, but this fact remains all the cartridges did give that extra soundstage on the TRIO, what changes is the frequency range highs and lows changed, but not the imaging. Having done the same to the direct drives all cartridges had varying freq responses but most impotantly none of the direct drives presented imaging and depth of that idler , god bless it. Its my charm!
idler v. DD v. belt drive con't
Ok, some further thoughts:
Daniel Walter: Yes! I suspect that idlers are the true champions of soundstaging. If mechanical noise is an issue, it can always be addressed, using rather simple means. The old Dual 1214 w/219 arm/Grado is at least in the same league as my Alex MkII/SME 309/Grado set-up, although very different. The Dual kills the Oracle in almost every way except bass, and that can be fixed via a beefy plinth.
DominicL:
Before one suugests otherwise, I suggest the best lessons learned are ones that you learn through some sort of personal exploration and discovery. Normally I would not have believed that an old Dual 1216 could sound as good or better than my Oracle, and that is in the context of the old Dual sitting on a horrendous cheap wood frame (if you could even call it that).
I think you might find the attitude here to be one of "discovery" and experimentation. Many may not agree with you, however, most will admit if they have experimented WRT the point one is trying to make and often have positive ideas.
Ok, some further thoughts:
Daniel Walter: Yes! I suspect that idlers are the true champions of soundstaging. If mechanical noise is an issue, it can always be addressed, using rather simple means. The old Dual 1214 w/219 arm/Grado is at least in the same league as my Alex MkII/SME 309/Grado set-up, although very different. The Dual kills the Oracle in almost every way except bass, and that can be fixed via a beefy plinth.
DominicL:
Before one suugests otherwise, I suggest the best lessons learned are ones that you learn through some sort of personal exploration and discovery. Normally I would not have believed that an old Dual 1216 could sound as good or better than my Oracle, and that is in the context of the old Dual sitting on a horrendous cheap wood frame (if you could even call it that).
I think you might find the attitude here to be one of "discovery" and experimentation. Many may not agree with you, however, most will admit if they have experimented WRT the point one is trying to make and often have positive ideas.
This is very true you stated:I think you might find the attitude here to be one of "discovery" and experimentation. I know in my case On the idler drive anyway. The sound it has is due to damping modifications , a very good arm that must have very good bearings. And the other bearing or I should say lack of. This table has no bearing for the platter. They used a grease packed wad at the bottom for a platter bearing. I did enough research on the internet to find that the platter bearing is very crucial and besides the tonearm bearing is the second most important thing on any table. I cleaned it up repacked and tried first moly grease. no go to much grating still. then I tried Valvoline synthetic grease for bearing. Same thing. What finally worked was 5w20 mobil1 and a very loose tightening of the cap underneath.Oil, or grease they already figured would render better performance than any bearing they might have had. Nowadays a bearing incased in something super smooth fluid is an easy thing for them to do but back in 1969 who knows.
this is so true on us old timers in audio:If mechanical noise is an issue, it can always be addressed, using rather simple means. Those evils I had with my trio when I bought it. grateing idler wheel, grating platter, tonearm lift issue.All of these I did overcome and with so much damping with dynamat and roofin tar. the idler wheel I had to position in a certain area up and down and I had to use light sewing machine oil on the shaft for the idler.Grado zf3 cartridge installed with new sytlus. voltage converter now installed to step down juice. and I already told you about the platter bearing or lack of. and new mat from kitchen cabinet liner the new rubbery waffle stuff.
Its been about 5-6 years getting that trio to where it is now in terms of performance, each step made improvement or it wasn`t implemented . everything reversible if need be. You can`t ask for a sweeter project to make a audio dream come true.With the addition of the step down transformer its gone to out of this world experience from a extraordinary that it was before.
Stalker!!
LOL!! Just kidding! We should have came here first. Much more open minded and receptive! Thanks folks!
Time well spent! This is what the hobby is about for me anyway. Looks like quite a few folks here agree!
I thought I might share how Trio acclomplished the spindle without the bearing. Some might think as innovative. I know I do. The bottom of the spindle is shaped into a blunt cone/ball. If you look at the bottom it looks like a ball and taper into the shaft. Well the spindle cap holds a almost washer looking piece that houses the cloth or whatever you use oil/grease. grease hardens and that`s why I coose 5w20 synthetic motor oil. I was able to acclomplish this because the spindle cap has a o-ring to seal it.
more receptive to experiments, whether "virtual" or "real"...
...is what got me started here. Not that everybody here does DIY, but many come here for tweaking ideas.
I have a Kencraft (Trio) DD that I quite like the sound of. I haven't tweaked it, but I still suspect the old 1216 will kill it in a head to head.
You're using the step down tranny to reduce voltage to the motor? This is a well known "tweak" to reduce AC motor noise to almost non-existent levels.
I agree that the platter and tonearm bearings are one of the most significant areas where an improvement can be had. And often for ridiculously little money.
...is what got me started here. Not that everybody here does DIY, but many come here for tweaking ideas.
I have a Kencraft (Trio) DD that I quite like the sound of. I haven't tweaked it, but I still suspect the old 1216 will kill it in a head to head.
You're using the step down tranny to reduce voltage to the motor? This is a well known "tweak" to reduce AC motor noise to almost non-existent levels.
I agree that the platter and tonearm bearings are one of the most significant areas where an improvement can be had. And often for ridiculously little money.
Yes Nanook the step down transformer is because this Trio 350 was Japanese never exported to USA . It was bought downtown in Japan by a servicemember and shipped back is what the seller told me 6 years ago. The voltage for the motor is 100 volts Japanese standard. After all these years I decided to do it proper. It performed great 120 volts but was getting a little warm and I might add the oil wick reservoir that goes to upper and lower bearings was using some oil Strobe check before and after showed the same and no drift. I know its a rare table and I cherish it. kenwod produced the kenwood 350 and put 120 volt motors in for export in those
Well theoretically transformer process would filter yes also but the transformer had no information of those property`s
Strobe check before and after showed the same and no drift. I know its a rare table and I cherish it. kenwod produced the kenwood 350 and put 120 volt motors in for export in thoseWell theoretically transformer process would filter yes also but the transformer had no information of those property`s
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for the most part motor bearings aren`t an issue with newer tables. Eliminating friction in all bearing area causes you to have your noise issues taken care to a major degree. damping and doing some other tweeks and your not having to worry about thinking that a needle in a groove changing its vibrating frequency is gonna slow down any good motor to effect pitch sounding or perception their of is absolutely hilariously funny. That s what some people are staing in an other forum. It is possible to tweek these old idlers to have every bit as good wow& flutter as direct drive. In 1969 if you check the Japanese website that has my specs you see this table had a remarkable .04 wow and flutter. For 1969 this belt/idler dual drive had as good specs as the direct drive for wow&flutter.
the s/n was an outstandinging 53 using a 2 1/2 gram needle setting weight cartridge.
the s/n was an outstandinging 53 using a 2 1/2 gram needle setting weight cartridge.
I have also replaced the cables with good quality gold ones. And replaced the motor filter capacitor with a Vitamin q paper oil specialty capacitor.
link:
http://www.machmat.com/sales/capavitq.htm
link:
http://www.machmat.com/sales/capavitq.htm
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@ Nanook.. Re: your direct drive.. Just a suggestion. Check to see that your direct drive turntable is not picking up any table resonance. If it is you can realize HUGE improvements by decoupling. My Denon dp-62l picked up resonance from table with stock feet. Put some home made spring feet under there and its a better sounding table now! Sorry if you know this. Just putting it out there. Very important to decouple. Dual does that with spring suspension.
Dominic
Dominic
2 things: 1. I agree with dominicL on the feet issue. I took a little different approach and installed extra rubber under the feet. 2. Even tho I am nearing the 60 mark you can teach an old dog new tricks. I assumed, I know, never assume nothing. that since my table didn`t have antiskate that I was one of fortunate enuf to have a table that the arm geometry and drive method was designed to overcome it but I just had to check and low and behold the antiskate check failed> So I installed a 3 gram fishing weight on a safety pin bent in a s shape to hang on the back of the arm in front of the counter balancer and it works, yea ,rah! I tried 2 gram first no go then 3 gram was the magic weight. I know to some this might be trivial cuz obviously the table worked before. If their is something bad this might be causing I haven`t heard it yet but for now sounds the same.
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I do suspect that the original cartridge and needle tracking at a high 2 1/2 grams never had to worry about antiskate when this table was new. But now using a grado tracking at 1 &1/2 grams is a diferent colored horse. Compliance wise I actually have a nickel and a penny on the headshell so a leveling weight can be achieved and still give me enuf turns for my needle weight.
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So where are you at now?
Dominic you stated this thread with the following speculation. Wondering where you are at now?
Quote:
" My theory as stated above is that the freewheeling idler on the outside of the belt drive platter dampens the rotating platter's bad vibrations and lets the high fidelity lor lack of) of the recording shine through unimpeded. Any thoughts on how to test. Im not afaid to be "proved" wrong either. I'm on a mission to find outt one way or another. Please help! "
Best regards Moray James.
Dominic you stated this thread with the following speculation. Wondering where you are at now?
Quote:
" My theory as stated above is that the freewheeling idler on the outside of the belt drive platter dampens the rotating platter's bad vibrations and lets the high fidelity lor lack of) of the recording shine through unimpeded. Any thoughts on how to test. Im not afaid to be "proved" wrong either. I'm on a mission to find outt one way or another. Please help! "
Best regards Moray James.
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