In a few weeks my system is going out which to my horror I have discovered will be in a UK Garage room which means shouting MCs all night. There is also some kind of live PA which at the moment I have no idea of their requirements, whether they are just plugging into the mixer input or also singing down the mic or what. I will find out in due course, but I'm deliberating what to do with them.
I'm guessing the normal approach is for them to plug into the mic input on the pioneer mixer (DJM900) and run it through the PA. What concerns me is I then have no control over their level, at all. The wireless mic we will be using has no compressor built in as far as I can tell (A brief look). I do have a compressor on the input to my active crossover but typically that is triggered by the kick / bass it is unlikely to fire easily with just the shouty MC which could send a lot of nasty loud rubbish to the mids.
The options as I see it are.
1) Accept this and tell the MCs in advance to be respectful otherwise they are unplugged / off.
2) Use the 3rd input on my active crossover and put the mic into that. I can then control the level and put a compressor on that input independently.
3) Purchase a digital mixer (I was thinking of doing this anyway, just maybe not so soon) and putting the mic into that and then into the DJM mixer. Digital mixer has compressors etc and I can tame shouting adjust levels etc easily and in real time.
4) Put my regular DJ monitors (pair of EV ELX12P) alongside the PA and put the mic into those, so the PA doesnt have to cope with them at all. Rely on their inbuilt limiters to protect them.
Pros / cons to the above
Re: 1) No control and potential conflict with grumpy MCs
Re: 2) I don't even know if this would work, whether I can use the 3rd input as a mic input since it effectively means no pre amp. I guess it depends on the mic output.
Re: 3) Immediate cost and grappling with something new, not tried and tested at this point, and hoping it doesn't fail
Re: 4) Not much control again only on the back of the speakers which isnt ideal. But it shouldn't do any damage and leaves my PA to do its thing whilst not mushing up the midrange. I'm not sure if they will go loud enough. There is no way to also route the sound through the DJ monitors. I have to take another set of DJ monitors as well to use in place of them (bigger and heavier, amps more wires etc)
1 sounds like too much potential for fail. 4 was suggested my someone else and it makes some sense but I'm not convinced as I can not really try this out before the night and also the logistics of carting about even more amps and speakers. I'm thinking option 2 or 3. Option 3 makes the most sense despite new equipment anxiety. I guess I could also prepare option 2 in the event option 3 fails and I need a backup plan on the night.
Any suggestions or other ideas?
I'm guessing the normal approach is for them to plug into the mic input on the pioneer mixer (DJM900) and run it through the PA. What concerns me is I then have no control over their level, at all. The wireless mic we will be using has no compressor built in as far as I can tell (A brief look). I do have a compressor on the input to my active crossover but typically that is triggered by the kick / bass it is unlikely to fire easily with just the shouty MC which could send a lot of nasty loud rubbish to the mids.
The options as I see it are.
1) Accept this and tell the MCs in advance to be respectful otherwise they are unplugged / off.
2) Use the 3rd input on my active crossover and put the mic into that. I can then control the level and put a compressor on that input independently.
3) Purchase a digital mixer (I was thinking of doing this anyway, just maybe not so soon) and putting the mic into that and then into the DJM mixer. Digital mixer has compressors etc and I can tame shouting adjust levels etc easily and in real time.
4) Put my regular DJ monitors (pair of EV ELX12P) alongside the PA and put the mic into those, so the PA doesnt have to cope with them at all. Rely on their inbuilt limiters to protect them.
Pros / cons to the above
Re: 1) No control and potential conflict with grumpy MCs
Re: 2) I don't even know if this would work, whether I can use the 3rd input as a mic input since it effectively means no pre amp. I guess it depends on the mic output.
Re: 3) Immediate cost and grappling with something new, not tried and tested at this point, and hoping it doesn't fail
Re: 4) Not much control again only on the back of the speakers which isnt ideal. But it shouldn't do any damage and leaves my PA to do its thing whilst not mushing up the midrange. I'm not sure if they will go loud enough. There is no way to also route the sound through the DJ monitors. I have to take another set of DJ monitors as well to use in place of them (bigger and heavier, amps more wires etc)
1 sounds like too much potential for fail. 4 was suggested my someone else and it makes some sense but I'm not convinced as I can not really try this out before the night and also the logistics of carting about even more amps and speakers. I'm thinking option 2 or 3. Option 3 makes the most sense despite new equipment anxiety. I guess I could also prepare option 2 in the event option 3 fails and I need a backup plan on the night.
Any suggestions or other ideas?
run everything through a digital desk, don't use the DJM pre. You need filters for feedback suppresion, noise gate and compressors, at some point an MC will get in front of a speaker, you may want to use an automatic feedback suppressor if you are not fast on the desk. You can hire an X32 if you don't have a desk which is the most common desk at this level and has all* these features. Also you should have good enough output limiting that in everything but the most sustained gross overload no drivers should be damaged. You should also be running the booth out and master out through the desk which will give you level control over the monitoring system and the master (people will tun themselves up and you can counter this by turning their monitors up and the master down). Why are you so horrified by this event? it seems like a pretty standard gig?
*- auto feedback suppressor
*- auto feedback suppressor
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The reason I'm horrified is the MC element. Everything I've done up to now has been house or techno = no MCs.
I'm plenty happy to with DJs trying to smash the reds. I just lurk about and turn them down again and if they persist a stern warning usually sends the message and they self manage. But the MC thing is new to me and having heard some live at events its a little scary hence the above post.
Thanks for the advice on the desk I think that's got to be the way to go. The one I had in mind was smaller, not that expensive, and doesn't have a feedback destroyer feature. My gut was right that this is a potential pita. I do have limiters set and below the drivers official ratings so it shouldnt blow anything with out and out power but I cant imagine repeated nasties or distortion doing it any good.
I'm plenty happy to with DJs trying to smash the reds. I just lurk about and turn them down again and if they persist a stern warning usually sends the message and they self manage. But the MC thing is new to me and having heard some live at events its a little scary hence the above post.
Thanks for the advice on the desk I think that's got to be the way to go. The one I had in mind was smaller, not that expensive, and doesn't have a feedback destroyer feature. My gut was right that this is a potential pita. I do have limiters set and below the drivers official ratings so it shouldnt blow anything with out and out power but I cant imagine repeated nasties or distortion doing it any good.
Pioneer mic preamps SUCK!!!! Don't go there, standard practice for me is everything goes through my prosound mixer except any monitors the DJ uses for beat matching.. connect those directly to thier DJ controller/mixer and let them turn them up/down as they please.
But the ouputs from the DJ rig go into line inputs on my mixer and all mics connect directly to my mixer so I have full control over all levels to the main PA. A digital mixer has all the tools to make this a stress free task but you don't need a topend unit, an Behringer X32 rack or Soundcraft Ui24r are awsome pieces of kit but if you don't need that much capacity for the events you do a Behringer XR12 has everything you woud need to take control of an event like this, you just need a tablet of some type and a copy of the control APP.
But the ouputs from the DJ rig go into line inputs on my mixer and all mics connect directly to my mixer so I have full control over all levels to the main PA. A digital mixer has all the tools to make this a stress free task but you don't need a topend unit, an Behringer X32 rack or Soundcraft Ui24r are awsome pieces of kit but if you don't need that much capacity for the events you do a Behringer XR12 has everything you woud need to take control of an event like this, you just need a tablet of some type and a copy of the control APP.
if your just doing DJ events as conanski says the rack mixer+ipad is the way to go. Sorry about the confusion regarding the auto feedback suppression the X32 doesn't have that. MC's are a bad thing imo if they are just doing the 'yeah' 'pump it up' thing over music but there are plenty of music+vocal acts that are pretty good. You will also want to look up the EQ you should apply to vocalists input channels. A cool aspect of the IPAD approach is you can adjust the master EQ from the crowd, its very helpful if your playing music from more underground sceans as you can 'fix' the mastering (or lack of mastering).
DJ monitors Im happy for them to go from the mixer booth out to my EVs and trust their limiters.
I can do most stuff I need to live on the active crossover (xilica xp3060) controlled via my laptop. Turns out it can do feedback suppression as well so that's a result (never needed it before until now). But its not the IPAD from within the crowd solution which would be great (I should look at getting an ipad for this). I still think it needs something with control between the mic and xilica though (at least a compressor to tame any shouting).
Generally I have found that not much needs doing to house and techno (a few db lower on the subs for techno as this tends to be very bass heavy already). If someone is playing old stuff, especially off vinyl, it needs a bit of boosting in the very low and high ends to sound somewhat OK along side modern stuff.
I can do most stuff I need to live on the active crossover (xilica xp3060) controlled via my laptop. Turns out it can do feedback suppression as well so that's a result (never needed it before until now). But its not the IPAD from within the crowd solution which would be great (I should look at getting an ipad for this). I still think it needs something with control between the mic and xilica though (at least a compressor to tame any shouting).
Generally I have found that not much needs doing to house and techno (a few db lower on the subs for techno as this tends to be very bass heavy already). If someone is playing old stuff, especially off vinyl, it needs a bit of boosting in the very low and high ends to sound somewhat OK along side modern stuff.
IMO, there's no particular need for feedback suppressors.
My approach would be this:
Other notes:
- The reason I went for the QSC desks (originally the TM16, now the TM30Pro) is because I didn't want a tablet (connected via WiFi) to be my sole method of talking to the mixer. That ruled out all of the black boxes with lots of XLR connectors: if the WiFi goes down (as it does at times, especially as the venue fills up with phones screaming on every available WiFi channel), all control is gone. The QSC desks have screens built-in, which I treat as a hard-wired backup. Behringer does some smaller X32s which might also be worth a look.
- In terms of mics, most MCs will expect an SM58. They sound okay and they work. If you're concerned about feedback and want to splash out on something nicer, the Sennheiser e945 is a better mic and has a narrower pickup pattern. Given how MCs treat mics, though, I'd go for something that's cheap enough to have a spare on-hand.
- When setting up, ring out the mic. Turn it up loud, walk around for a bit, and notch out the first two or three frequencies that ring. With a reasonably well-behaved PA/monitor/room situation, that should allow the vocals to be seriously loud. Once you've done that, back the mic level off by 6-10dB. That way, when the MC (inevitably) tells you to turn it up, you know you've got room to push without worrying. Just make sure you turn it down a bit before the next guy comes on and makes the same request.
Chris
My approach would be this:
- Pick a reasonable digital mixing desk. I like the QSC ones, but they aren't without their flaws. You don't need many channels.
- Feed everything into that desk. DJ main outs, DJ booth, MC, anything else needed.
- For the DJ stuff, you can just pass it straight through and out. Lets you keep an eye on their levels and make adjustments if needed.
- For the MC mic, a compressor set to come in quickly with a fairly high ratio (5:1) will stop them getting too loud. You can compress just that channel, so the music won't be affected. A gate would help reduce mush, but see how you get on without it first. Set a HPF for around 100Hz, and use some EQ to reduce the lower-mid further. That'll help keep the vocals clear in spite of the proximity effect. You can also dial up other FX if you so wish, but I'm not sure if they'll be needed.
Other notes:
- The reason I went for the QSC desks (originally the TM16, now the TM30Pro) is because I didn't want a tablet (connected via WiFi) to be my sole method of talking to the mixer. That ruled out all of the black boxes with lots of XLR connectors: if the WiFi goes down (as it does at times, especially as the venue fills up with phones screaming on every available WiFi channel), all control is gone. The QSC desks have screens built-in, which I treat as a hard-wired backup. Behringer does some smaller X32s which might also be worth a look.
- In terms of mics, most MCs will expect an SM58. They sound okay and they work. If you're concerned about feedback and want to splash out on something nicer, the Sennheiser e945 is a better mic and has a narrower pickup pattern. Given how MCs treat mics, though, I'd go for something that's cheap enough to have a spare on-hand.
- When setting up, ring out the mic. Turn it up loud, walk around for a bit, and notch out the first two or three frequencies that ring. With a reasonably well-behaved PA/monitor/room situation, that should allow the vocals to be seriously loud. Once you've done that, back the mic level off by 6-10dB. That way, when the MC (inevitably) tells you to turn it up, you know you've got room to push without worrying. Just make sure you turn it down a bit before the next guy comes on and makes the same request.
Chris
You can't connect a mic directly to the Xilica... well you can but you won't hear anything because there is no mic preamp. The mic needs to go into a mixing desk and have some processing applied. If you do that and the sound system is well controlled which it should be with that processor, then feedback won't be a problem.
Shouting Masters of Ceremony. Guys that can't sing so they just jump around shouting loud in microphones.
In 3 letters: rap
In 3 letters: rap
Thanks.
UGH!!! sadly dealt with many of those.
Often have to wash microphones in the dishwasher afterwards because they absolutely spray them with foul smelling spit.
Ok, not actually washing them, which does not mean they don´t NEED it, if you catch my drift, anybody dealing with PA work can attest to that, often microphones STINK.
Seriously thinking about copying this female anchor´s idea, excellent!!!!
UGH!!! sadly dealt with many of those.
Often have to wash microphones in the dishwasher afterwards because they absolutely spray them with foul smelling spit.
Ok, not actually washing them, which does not mean they don´t NEED it, if you catch my drift, anybody dealing with PA work can attest to that, often microphones STINK.
Seriously thinking about copying this female anchor´s idea, excellent!!!!
Pitch shifters and a high-pass filter with attenuator triggered by a limiter, so every time they exceed a specified threshold for a specified period of time their voice gets pitched up an octave and high-passed.
And electrified microphones.
(Just being silly, I quite like MCs, but I'd be bringing compressors)
no! Rap can be, and often is, intelligent, poetic, funny, involving, uplifting...it's not all about boasting about bling and weaponry.
Shouty MCs are just there to tell the audience that they should be enjoying the tunes that they can't hear above all the shouting.
Yes, the MCs are not usually the ones doing the rapping.
Loud, excessively distorted sound is par for the course at these types of events. Regardless of the size of the system they’d push it to plaid. The distortion is part of the “energy”, and without it something is missing. You just need to configure the system to be able to tolerate it. 8 ohms stereo instead of bridged 4. Keep amp sizes within driver thermal ratings. It leaves performance on the table, but youre not reconing speakers, either. If you’ve got shouty MCs (or rappers) on the mics just forget about 1” HF drivers. Go straight to 2”.
Loud, excessively distorted sound is par for the course at these types of events. Regardless of the size of the system they’d push it to plaid. The distortion is part of the “energy”, and without it something is missing. You just need to configure the system to be able to tolerate it. 8 ohms stereo instead of bridged 4. Keep amp sizes within driver thermal ratings. It leaves performance on the table, but youre not reconing speakers, either. If you’ve got shouty MCs (or rappers) on the mics just forget about 1” HF drivers. Go straight to 2”.
It was a success but graft. I purchased a Behringer Flow 8 and put everything through that so could control it all remotely and had a limiter on the master output which worked really well to protect the system from the combining sources (and for seeing when the DJ was smashing the reds). EQ'd the Mic channels cutting 100hz and pushing the top end a little.
I could see the mids (twin 10s) were working hard and most likely hitting the limiters I set on the amp when the Mcs we giving it some (they do 110 to 700hz). Compression drivers are the BMS 4954 coaxials and they seemed to have plenty of overhead left, nowhere near the limiters from what I could tell. Overall it sounded pretty good in a room with fairly terrible acoustics.
The amps are well over spec for the current application. They are rated at 4 * 2600 RMS into 4 ohms. One amp per stack, limiters set at 1680rms (subs 2000 rated), 1060rms (mids 1200 rated), 135 rms and 60rms (CDs) respectively. They don't put out any heat at all, barely working really except the sub channel.
But I've learnt that the weak point is the 2 10s they are running out of puff before everything else.
I could see the mids (twin 10s) were working hard and most likely hitting the limiters I set on the amp when the Mcs we giving it some (they do 110 to 700hz). Compression drivers are the BMS 4954 coaxials and they seemed to have plenty of overhead left, nowhere near the limiters from what I could tell. Overall it sounded pretty good in a room with fairly terrible acoustics.
The amps are well over spec for the current application. They are rated at 4 * 2600 RMS into 4 ohms. One amp per stack, limiters set at 1680rms (subs 2000 rated), 1060rms (mids 1200 rated), 135 rms and 60rms (CDs) respectively. They don't put out any heat at all, barely working really except the sub channel.
But I've learnt that the weak point is the 2 10s they are running out of puff before everything else.
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we also hit the low mids hard for vocals/bands. Used to run 3*12" with short horns per side and hit limiting then switched to a single 15" midbass horn per side of appropriate length and haven't since then.
One problem I see is that the way 98% of MCs hold the mic means that the usual SM58 is converted from cardioid to omni.