I don't think that is the case - some very high end amps like Jeff rowland amps are based on ICEpower, but I think that they use some form of a trasformer input stage.
It is quite interesting to learn that Belcanto changed from Tripath to ICEpower.
Regards
Charles
Regards
Charles
ICE Power Info
Most of the ICE Power amps including the ASP series are single rail, full bridge, floating output at 1/2 of the supply voltage with no blocking caps. Only the very latest amps using the Sanyo manufactured modulator chip are half bridge with dual rails. These will be used in the ASX and ASA series modules.
As far as the power cord goes, just use the heaviest cord you can get. However, much thicker than 12 guage is no big help as you still have 14Ga solid wire in your walls, with the cheapest possible copper in it or maybe even worse, aluminum.
It makes no sense fooling with a $1200 power cord unless you have the same quality of wire all the way bck to the distribution panel in your house. Because when you use an outlet you still have mainly really cheap wire between the panel and the outlet in series with the cord. And in a series circuit the poorest part of the circuit generally determines the quality of the signal or power through it. However, because the ASP module has a regulated SMPS in it, this takes out most of the effect of bad power anyway.
I had a new product review on ICE Power for the coming year at the CES in Las Vegas, in the ICE Power suite in the Hilton last week.
I know I'm being cruel. I'm an OEM ICE Power customer and I get to see all this neat stuff before everyone else. Stuff that is unobtainable on the DIY market. We did discuss the desire of the DIY market in our meeting. However, the conclusion was that because the ICE Power products do have a learning curve to get runing correctly and that they do require some technical hand holding, which is expensive, it is not practical to put them on the DIY market.
In my case, we fried about 10 modules before we learned how to deploy them correctly and with no further field failures. That was in 2001. Since then we have been able to deploy new ones like the 200ASC with no failures.
However, if there were a distributor willing to buy modules in 1000 quantity and resell them, doing the user support needed to deploy them correctly, ICE Power is willing to consider talking about getting them to the DIY market.
Most of the ICE Power amps including the ASP series are single rail, full bridge, floating output at 1/2 of the supply voltage with no blocking caps. Only the very latest amps using the Sanyo manufactured modulator chip are half bridge with dual rails. These will be used in the ASX and ASA series modules.
As far as the power cord goes, just use the heaviest cord you can get. However, much thicker than 12 guage is no big help as you still have 14Ga solid wire in your walls, with the cheapest possible copper in it or maybe even worse, aluminum.
It makes no sense fooling with a $1200 power cord unless you have the same quality of wire all the way bck to the distribution panel in your house. Because when you use an outlet you still have mainly really cheap wire between the panel and the outlet in series with the cord. And in a series circuit the poorest part of the circuit generally determines the quality of the signal or power through it. However, because the ASP module has a regulated SMPS in it, this takes out most of the effect of bad power anyway.
I had a new product review on ICE Power for the coming year at the CES in Las Vegas, in the ICE Power suite in the Hilton last week.
I know I'm being cruel. I'm an OEM ICE Power customer and I get to see all this neat stuff before everyone else. Stuff that is unobtainable on the DIY market. We did discuss the desire of the DIY market in our meeting. However, the conclusion was that because the ICE Power products do have a learning curve to get runing correctly and that they do require some technical hand holding, which is expensive, it is not practical to put them on the DIY market.
In my case, we fried about 10 modules before we learned how to deploy them correctly and with no further field failures. That was in 2001. Since then we have been able to deploy new ones like the 200ASC with no failures.
However, if there were a distributor willing to buy modules in 1000 quantity and resell them, doing the user support needed to deploy them correctly, ICE Power is willing to consider talking about getting them to the DIY market.
......I must say this remarkable news! I always thought that it was FORBIDDEN to sell these products to the DIY market????
The DIY market starts to be interesting for more manufactures....... 😉
Our experience, with the UcD modules, is that the customers who has NO knowledge read the manuals and has none problems. Probably because our half bridge topology this makes it easier understandable.
Regards,
Jan-Peter
Dan,
I think Jan-Peter outlined most of the issues with you post already, what raised a red flag for me was the fact that you mentioned the use of aluminum as a conductor for in house wiring. There's no such thing, as that's a fire hazard waiting to happen, for obvious reasons.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
I think Jan-Peter outlined most of the issues with you post already, what raised a red flag for me was the fact that you mentioned the use of aluminum as a conductor for in house wiring. There's no such thing, as that's a fire hazard waiting to happen, for obvious reasons.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Hi,
Manuals? No offence but they aren't worth much in their current form. I'd think they get their answers right here. Available information leaves alot open. Look at poor Pasi in the hotrod thread now trying to fight with doing the grounding the way you recommended but "manuals" fails to explain or demonstrate well.
There's twenty ways to hook up your most robust amplifier module and have it be hum free and dead silent for hiss, but few ways to reference the input properly, the manuals explain none of this.
Hi Sanders,
The reasons for not using aluminum wire are obvious now that we learnt from past mistakes. Do a quick search on google for "residiential aluminum wire".... there's a body count, and it does still exist.
Regards,
Chris
Chris,
Did you check this manual; http://www.hypex.nl/docs/UcD700_manual.pdf
And this: http://www.hypex.nl/docs/wiring.pdf
In one or two weeks we will present a paper on our website about grounding and wiring, written by Bruno. This must be THE document about this topic!
But I do agree with you, the manuals/paper for the smaller modules could be more informative. We will improve this ASAP.
On the other hand, when there iare so less problems it tell's something about the product, isn't it.... 😉....?
Regards,
Jan-Peter
Did you check this manual; http://www.hypex.nl/docs/UcD700_manual.pdf
And this: http://www.hypex.nl/docs/wiring.pdf
In one or two weeks we will present a paper on our website about grounding and wiring, written by Bruno. This must be THE document about this topic!
But I do agree with you, the manuals/paper for the smaller modules could be more informative. We will improve this ASAP.
On the other hand, when there iare so less problems it tell's something about the product, isn't it.... 😉....?
Regards,
Jan-Peter
Re: ICE Power Info
hi dan,
having an EE background, i admit this makes perfect sense. if only it were so simple in practice. i used to not care about power cords either, but have found that once your system resolution gets to a certain level, changes in power cords are VERY audible. i once demonstrated this to some friends who absolutely refused to believe this could be the case, they used the very same argument - what does it matter when there's miles of wire between you and the power plant? i swapped power cords while my amp was playing, and they were baffled. the sound immediately changed, and it was not so subtle.
however, i am NOT advocating the purchase of $1200 cords. i myself would never buy a boutique cord, considering that they can easily be fabricated at home. the problem that is often overlooked is that wires are a real crapshoot - you can't reliably predict how it will sound, especially with power cords. when you buy an expensive cord, yes, it may be $50 in materials, but it may have taken the designer hundreds of hours of listening and experimentation with dozens of different wires to arrive at one that they liked. if the designer sells a hundred cords, and they spent 500 hours listening to it, that's 5 hours of their time that went into it, plus let's say the half hour of hand labor to assemble. again, i am not saying we should pay so much, i agree it is ridiculous, but it's a little unfair to pigeonhole the efforts of some legitimate individuals. the bottom line is they aren't exactly buying yachts with the sales of their products.
based on some brief experimentation, i do agree it is less sensitive to power cord change than most linear amps i have tried. there was still some difference, but it was pretty subtle.
what is involved in the "deployment" of an ICE module? at least in the case of the ASP module in this amp, i couldn't imagine it being any simpler. there's no grounding to contend with, in fact hardly any connections to make at all - input signal and ground to connector, speaker terminals to connector, AC input to connector. i could see with an external PS it would be more complicated though.
hi dan,
dmfraser said:
having an EE background, i admit this makes perfect sense. if only it were so simple in practice. i used to not care about power cords either, but have found that once your system resolution gets to a certain level, changes in power cords are VERY audible. i once demonstrated this to some friends who absolutely refused to believe this could be the case, they used the very same argument - what does it matter when there's miles of wire between you and the power plant? i swapped power cords while my amp was playing, and they were baffled. the sound immediately changed, and it was not so subtle.
however, i am NOT advocating the purchase of $1200 cords. i myself would never buy a boutique cord, considering that they can easily be fabricated at home. the problem that is often overlooked is that wires are a real crapshoot - you can't reliably predict how it will sound, especially with power cords. when you buy an expensive cord, yes, it may be $50 in materials, but it may have taken the designer hundreds of hours of listening and experimentation with dozens of different wires to arrive at one that they liked. if the designer sells a hundred cords, and they spent 500 hours listening to it, that's 5 hours of their time that went into it, plus let's say the half hour of hand labor to assemble. again, i am not saying we should pay so much, i agree it is ridiculous, but it's a little unfair to pigeonhole the efforts of some legitimate individuals. the bottom line is they aren't exactly buying yachts with the sales of their products.
based on some brief experimentation, i do agree it is less sensitive to power cord change than most linear amps i have tried. there was still some difference, but it was pretty subtle.
what is involved in the "deployment" of an ICE module? at least in the case of the ASP module in this amp, i couldn't imagine it being any simpler. there's no grounding to contend with, in fact hardly any connections to make at all - input signal and ground to connector, speaker terminals to connector, AC input to connector. i could see with an external PS it would be more complicated though.
Re: Re: ICE Power Info
Proper grounding layout, proper wiring, safety distance to high-voltage sections, short-circuit protection in the case of the A-series modules, keeping outputs (with DC-bias) isolated from the case, EMI shielding of module and wiring, obtaining regulatory approvals for the finished product etc. Simple compared to designing your own amplifier from scratch, but still not a trivial matter... 🙂
/U.
dorkus said:
Proper grounding layout, proper wiring, safety distance to high-voltage sections, short-circuit protection in the case of the A-series modules, keeping outputs (with DC-bias) isolated from the case, EMI shielding of module and wiring, obtaining regulatory approvals for the finished product etc. Simple compared to designing your own amplifier from scratch, but still not a trivial matter... 🙂
/U.
commercial UcD products
btw, what commercial products use UcD modules? i'm only aware of the Channel Island amps. (Jan-Peter?)
it would be great if i had an equivalent UcD amp on-hand to go head-to-head against the ICEPower amp - our publication loves doing such comparisons. perhaps i should get in touch with Dusty Vawter at CIA, tho i imagine after CES he is going to be swamped for a while.
btw, what commercial products use UcD modules? i'm only aware of the Channel Island amps. (Jan-Peter?)
it would be great if i had an equivalent UcD amp on-hand to go head-to-head against the ICEPower amp - our publication loves doing such comparisons. perhaps i should get in touch with Dusty Vawter at CIA, tho i imagine after CES he is going to be swamped for a while.
first clues to "coldness"
i think i may be starting to quantify why the sound of the ICEPower amp leaves me a little cold and detached emotionally from the music. i think it is in the area of "micro"-dynamics; it seems to gloss over them. while macro-dynamics are very good - clean, effortless, open - i get the sense that the little dynamic swells in the music are not being communicated effectively. e.g. the throbbing of a woodwind solo in Wagner's Tristan und Isolde, the longing vibrato and swells of the oboe in the 2nd mov't of Rimsky-Korsakov Scherazade, or the ebb and flow of lush string melodies are not expressive in a manner that draws the listener into the music. they sound nice enough, but are a little flat emotionally. while i am not a "tube" kind of person, i do feel that micro-dynamics are an area they excel at. so far, the ICEPower has not demonstrated that sort of dynamic resolution.
i also get the sense that when the music gets quiet, it doesn't sound "quiet" enough, if that makes any sense. it simply sounds like a lower volume level, instead of sounding truly quiet. when i was a violin student at a conservatory, learning to play piano with expression was a great skill - one had to convey a sense of quiet while maintaining focus, density, and intensity of sound. the ICEPower amp reminds me of students who had not learned this skill and simply reduced the volume of their sound without capturing the essense of piano. for lack of a better phrase, it lacks "dynamic articulation."
again, this may be a break-in issue... i will not know the "real sound" of the amp for a few more weeks probably, but just thought i'd share the observation to see if it rings any bells.
i think i may be starting to quantify why the sound of the ICEPower amp leaves me a little cold and detached emotionally from the music. i think it is in the area of "micro"-dynamics; it seems to gloss over them. while macro-dynamics are very good - clean, effortless, open - i get the sense that the little dynamic swells in the music are not being communicated effectively. e.g. the throbbing of a woodwind solo in Wagner's Tristan und Isolde, the longing vibrato and swells of the oboe in the 2nd mov't of Rimsky-Korsakov Scherazade, or the ebb and flow of lush string melodies are not expressive in a manner that draws the listener into the music. they sound nice enough, but are a little flat emotionally. while i am not a "tube" kind of person, i do feel that micro-dynamics are an area they excel at. so far, the ICEPower has not demonstrated that sort of dynamic resolution.
i also get the sense that when the music gets quiet, it doesn't sound "quiet" enough, if that makes any sense. it simply sounds like a lower volume level, instead of sounding truly quiet. when i was a violin student at a conservatory, learning to play piano with expression was a great skill - one had to convey a sense of quiet while maintaining focus, density, and intensity of sound. the ICEPower amp reminds me of students who had not learned this skill and simply reduced the volume of their sound without capturing the essense of piano. for lack of a better phrase, it lacks "dynamic articulation."
again, this may be a break-in issue... i will not know the "real sound" of the amp for a few more weeks probably, but just thought i'd share the observation to see if it rings any bells.
Jan-Peter said:
Hi Jan-Peter,
I thought your support on the forum always more than made up for what may not have been in the manuals of the first modules, although it now seems less useful to the extent of which people are willing to search (they're not). We know there'll be a FAQ someday though.
The 700 manual, I gave it a scroll, very nicely done, I both wonder if, and hope, that someday I'll need it.
Really though, my post was about that wiring manual. Remember my email about it the day it got released as the promised "alternative to star grounding"? I could have worded that email to you alot better though.
It's good information but just isn't enough.
Clearly you're well aware of all this now, so all I can say is thanks for listening. That say's alot for Hypex, which is nothing new for you either, but is always nice to see.
As far as this goes:
Yeah! Well...it could have a DF over 800
I also think the fact you can wire it so many ways and still have it:
1. Not go up in smoke (as long as you get the power rails the correct polarity.)
2. Be dead quiet, no hum, no hiss.
3. Still sound better than anything commercial I ever heard.
...is amazing. It say's alot towards the robustness and smart design of it, if I didn't convey that well enough in the last post I certainly should have.
Honestly, I feel bad for making that kind of post considering everything... but the intentions were for best of everyone, and who else gives you such honest feedback from the DIY perspective? Besides, I feel like your commercial customers are likely saying "noooo .... don't tell them".
It would be nice if ICEpower were available to us as well, if for nothing else then you'd have to make your SMPS more widely available.
All the same, I think they've some impossible shoes to fill if they want to enter the DIY market.
Best Regards,
Chris
ICE Modules
While the newer ICE modules like the ASP series and ASC series are far more bulletproof than the A series they are still not trivial to put into a product because there is so much energy floating around. Our early adventures in deployment were with the A series modules which have no protection at all.
One thing to watch with the A series is that if you fry the output, the high voltage supply gets applied to the +12V rail, frying all the other modules in the system as well as the preamp connected to it as well. To prevent this, I raised the regulated low voltages to ±12.6V and put a 1N4004 in series with both the + and - 12V inputs. Thus, a failure will be confined to one module.
Before we did this, a slip of a screwdriver would not blow just one module but all three in an amplifier.
The ASP modules worked first try out of the box but I have not deployed these in quantity as they will not fit in our product.
I have used the 200ASC module extensively and have not had one fail. However, my test technician burned out some resistors in one. The zobel network resistors smoked when he tried inventing his own tests and ran one at full power at 20KHz for 10 minutes. This is a not a good thing to do as this condition never occurs with an audio signal anyway.
As for the DIY market, it comes down to no one wanting to document them to the level needed for all DIY customers and a matter of warranty support. While most of you are quite competent in using things like this, in the true spirit of the "audio amateur" there are just enough ham handed idiots who will fry them and demand free replacements to take all the joy (and profit) out of selling them. So to date there have been no takers to buy OEM quantities and to resell them.
This also applies to D2Audio modules.
For example, both companies said they would sell to me but only if I did all the support and ate the ones blown up by the small per centage of idiots. I'm sorry but I just don't have the funds to do this. If you do, get hold of me. About $500,000 should do it.
In the mean time I suggest buying Jan-Peter's very fine line of UcD modules from Hypex. They sound as good as ICE Power, are easy to connect and worked first try for me when I tried them.
Dan
While the newer ICE modules like the ASP series and ASC series are far more bulletproof than the A series they are still not trivial to put into a product because there is so much energy floating around. Our early adventures in deployment were with the A series modules which have no protection at all.
One thing to watch with the A series is that if you fry the output, the high voltage supply gets applied to the +12V rail, frying all the other modules in the system as well as the preamp connected to it as well. To prevent this, I raised the regulated low voltages to ±12.6V and put a 1N4004 in series with both the + and - 12V inputs. Thus, a failure will be confined to one module.
Before we did this, a slip of a screwdriver would not blow just one module but all three in an amplifier.
The ASP modules worked first try out of the box but I have not deployed these in quantity as they will not fit in our product.
I have used the 200ASC module extensively and have not had one fail. However, my test technician burned out some resistors in one. The zobel network resistors smoked when he tried inventing his own tests and ran one at full power at 20KHz for 10 minutes. This is a not a good thing to do as this condition never occurs with an audio signal anyway.
As for the DIY market, it comes down to no one wanting to document them to the level needed for all DIY customers and a matter of warranty support. While most of you are quite competent in using things like this, in the true spirit of the "audio amateur" there are just enough ham handed idiots who will fry them and demand free replacements to take all the joy (and profit) out of selling them. So to date there have been no takers to buy OEM quantities and to resell them.
This also applies to D2Audio modules.
For example, both companies said they would sell to me but only if I did all the support and ate the ones blown up by the small per centage of idiots. I'm sorry but I just don't have the funds to do this. If you do, get hold of me. About $500,000 should do it.
In the mean time I suggest buying Jan-Peter's very fine line of UcD modules from Hypex. They sound as good as ICE Power, are easy to connect and worked first try for me when I tried them.
Dan
Hi Dan,
$500 000 for 1 000 modules you said?? Is that after your markup? I'm sure anyone wanting 1000 modules can deal with ICEpower directly yeah? Won't be selling any at that price.
Regards,
Chris
$500 000 for 1 000 modules you said?? Is that after your markup? I'm sure anyone wanting 1000 modules can deal with ICEpower directly yeah? Won't be selling any at that price.
Regards,
Chris
hi dan,
thanks for your honest appraisal. i have a question tho, and i apologize if it is blunt, but... if the UcD has equivalent performance to the ICEPower, and costs less (i think) to boot, then what are your reasons for using ICEPower?
chris, i think the ICEPower modules are quite expensive. i don't know if dan would be willing to reveal his OEM price (he shouldn't), but $500/module does not sound that far off to me.
cheers,
dorkus
thanks for your honest appraisal. i have a question tho, and i apologize if it is blunt, but... if the UcD has equivalent performance to the ICEPower, and costs less (i think) to boot, then what are your reasons for using ICEPower?
chris, i think the ICEPower modules are quite expensive. i don't know if dan would be willing to reveal his OEM price (he shouldn't), but $500/module does not sound that far off to me.
cheers,
dorkus
$500K
I am not talking about selling 1000 modules to one person. This person can indeed go direct to ICE. Erland would be very happy to sell modules to them. I am talking selling 1000 modules to 500 people.
As well, people are not going to settle for one model. I would have to get 1000 each of several different modules. I would expect to offer D2Audio modules as well as ICE. Plus supporting people who bought 1000 modules is a full time job for several months. Overhead for a place to stock them is expensive. Shipping, advertising, etc is expensive. Even Internet advertising can be expensive in that it can chew up a lot of time.
It would basically be starting a new business and $500K is not a lot of money to spend on one selling products this specialized and expensive.
We still use ICE because we were committed to ICE in that power range before the UcD modules were available. If UcD were available at the same time, we would have seriously considered them. However, at this stage it is too costly to re-engineer the product to switch over now that all the agency approvals have been obtained.
However, the ICE people seem uninterested in going over 1000W and since the UcD modules are bridgeable we are seriously looking at them for applications needing still more power. A pair of UcD700's can give us 1400W for sub-woofer applications. We are being sampled on high powered UcD modules and I expect to incorporate them into new products in the coming months.
If I could get 500 people to put up $180 each for a pair of the ICE 200ASC module (200W into 4 ohms including universal voltage switching power supply) I could have these out to the market quite quickly. However, I very much doubt if thisWhile these are quite good and may be sonically different than the UcD modules, they are no better than the UcD180 and Jan Peter has the UcD180 in stock for immediate shipping.
You sometimes just have to go with what you can get.
Dan
I am not talking about selling 1000 modules to one person. This person can indeed go direct to ICE. Erland would be very happy to sell modules to them. I am talking selling 1000 modules to 500 people.
As well, people are not going to settle for one model. I would have to get 1000 each of several different modules. I would expect to offer D2Audio modules as well as ICE. Plus supporting people who bought 1000 modules is a full time job for several months. Overhead for a place to stock them is expensive. Shipping, advertising, etc is expensive. Even Internet advertising can be expensive in that it can chew up a lot of time.
It would basically be starting a new business and $500K is not a lot of money to spend on one selling products this specialized and expensive.
We still use ICE because we were committed to ICE in that power range before the UcD modules were available. If UcD were available at the same time, we would have seriously considered them. However, at this stage it is too costly to re-engineer the product to switch over now that all the agency approvals have been obtained.
However, the ICE people seem uninterested in going over 1000W and since the UcD modules are bridgeable we are seriously looking at them for applications needing still more power. A pair of UcD700's can give us 1400W for sub-woofer applications. We are being sampled on high powered UcD modules and I expect to incorporate them into new products in the coming months.
If I could get 500 people to put up $180 each for a pair of the ICE 200ASC module (200W into 4 ohms including universal voltage switching power supply) I could have these out to the market quite quickly. However, I very much doubt if thisWhile these are quite good and may be sonically different than the UcD modules, they are no better than the UcD180 and Jan Peter has the UcD180 in stock for immediate shipping.
You sometimes just have to go with what you can get.
Dan
Hi,
Ah! Sorry Dan. I thought you wanted someone else to pay retail for 1000 modules... you just need backing. Got ya.
As you know Hypex is pushing their 700 to alot more power than that too, non bridged no less, 1200w already, aiming for 2500W. Also their SMPS I'd think will make a difference in what you go with? It sounds like DIY'rs will see none of this though, maybe you should make that available instead 🙂
It doesn't sound like you think the ICEpower modules are robust enough for the DIY market. All the difficulties mentioned thus far have been trivial, and we certainly aren't concerned with approvals, like you say, a few months time to get a thread rolling is all that would take.
Will the Sanyo chips ever be available to us, and could a more robust ICEpower be made out of them?
Regards,
Chris
Ah! Sorry Dan. I thought you wanted someone else to pay retail for 1000 modules... you just need backing. Got ya.
As you know Hypex is pushing their 700 to alot more power than that too, non bridged no less, 1200w already, aiming for 2500W. Also their SMPS I'd think will make a difference in what you go with? It sounds like DIY'rs will see none of this though, maybe you should make that available instead 🙂
It doesn't sound like you think the ICEpower modules are robust enough for the DIY market. All the difficulties mentioned thus far have been trivial, and we certainly aren't concerned with approvals, like you say, a few months time to get a thread rolling is all that would take.
Will the Sanyo chips ever be available to us, and could a more robust ICEpower be made out of them?
Regards,
Chris
ICE Modules
I have to admit the current ICE modules are a lot more robust than the earlier A series however, all it takes is some idiot to run them without a housing and someone touches them in the wrong place and then the seller's life is in for a whole lot of legal hurt. This is because it is too easy in a way to get the ASP and ASC series modules running. They will run as it, in free air, without a whole lot of extra work.
The impression I get is that ICE want to only deal with people they have met and deemed to be competent. Who are forced to build a product with agancy approval and thus the legal factors are taken care of.
Hypex is freed from this for now as their units do not have power supplies and thus need a whole lot more work to get running than an ICE ASP module. This takes them out of the realm of the most unqualified people. And the Hypex modules are robust enough to take a shorted output. The ICE A series are not. And with a floating DC voltage on the output, the A series is dangerous when not used in a carefully controlled environment.
I do know that Hypex is working on still higher powered modules but I feel that any news on these best come from Jan-Peter and not me, when he feels is best to announce these.
As for the Sanyo chip, at this time, ICE is selling the fully built module to me as prices where I cannot compete building the external circuitry myself. My needs are for loads of power anyway and not the ultimate in audiophile listening anyway. I don't have the time to tweak the things. We just use them the way they come. Besides, Steen and most of the rest of the people at ICE themselves are audiophiles themselves and I really doubt I could tweak them any better than they do already. Rest assured they do test themselves with good music and the finest other equipment in their systems though I do detect a slight bias towards using Bang and Olafson speakers and other equipment.
If there is any colorations that could be tweaked one way or the other it is likely that is the way the personal taste of the design team went.
As for breaking them in, yes, I can see that maybe about 1000 hours of running where the temperature rose above 50°C can break them in. This is needed to set the adhesives in the networks that convert the PWM back to audio. Also the SMPS transformer and to fully form the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply. However, it should be 90% of the way there after 100 hours of running at enthusiastic power levels.
If there is anyone out there who thinks they can make money selling modules to the DIY market and can tie up say $500K then let me know and I will introduce you to the right people.
Dan
I have to admit the current ICE modules are a lot more robust than the earlier A series however, all it takes is some idiot to run them without a housing and someone touches them in the wrong place and then the seller's life is in for a whole lot of legal hurt. This is because it is too easy in a way to get the ASP and ASC series modules running. They will run as it, in free air, without a whole lot of extra work.
The impression I get is that ICE want to only deal with people they have met and deemed to be competent. Who are forced to build a product with agancy approval and thus the legal factors are taken care of.
Hypex is freed from this for now as their units do not have power supplies and thus need a whole lot more work to get running than an ICE ASP module. This takes them out of the realm of the most unqualified people. And the Hypex modules are robust enough to take a shorted output. The ICE A series are not. And with a floating DC voltage on the output, the A series is dangerous when not used in a carefully controlled environment.
I do know that Hypex is working on still higher powered modules but I feel that any news on these best come from Jan-Peter and not me, when he feels is best to announce these.
As for the Sanyo chip, at this time, ICE is selling the fully built module to me as prices where I cannot compete building the external circuitry myself. My needs are for loads of power anyway and not the ultimate in audiophile listening anyway. I don't have the time to tweak the things. We just use them the way they come. Besides, Steen and most of the rest of the people at ICE themselves are audiophiles themselves and I really doubt I could tweak them any better than they do already. Rest assured they do test themselves with good music and the finest other equipment in their systems though I do detect a slight bias towards using Bang and Olafson speakers and other equipment.
If there is any colorations that could be tweaked one way or the other it is likely that is the way the personal taste of the design team went.
As for breaking them in, yes, I can see that maybe about 1000 hours of running where the temperature rose above 50°C can break them in. This is needed to set the adhesives in the networks that convert the PWM back to audio. Also the SMPS transformer and to fully form the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply. However, it should be 90% of the way there after 100 hours of running at enthusiastic power levels.
If there is anyone out there who thinks they can make money selling modules to the DIY market and can tie up say $500K then let me know and I will introduce you to the right people.
Dan
Hi Dan,
Ahh, now I see why Hypex won't be offering the supply to us.
Great reply overall, thanks.
I was thinking two things when I asked about the Sanyo chip. The other was if we could get a hold of the bare IC's and make our own modules with them, there'd be a few start ups from that as seen with the tripath stuff... I know there can't be much money in that though, but it wouldn't take much either?
I wouldn't let that kind of thing slip either, but the cat is out of the bag now.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=803684#post803684
Regards,
Chris
Ahh, now I see why Hypex won't be offering the supply to us.
Great reply overall, thanks.
I was thinking two things when I asked about the Sanyo chip. The other was if we could get a hold of the bare IC's and make our own modules with them, there'd be a few start ups from that as seen with the tripath stuff... I know there can't be much money in that though, but it wouldn't take much either?
I wouldn't let that kind of thing slip either, but the cat is out of the bag now.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=803684#post803684
Regards,
Chris
DIY ICE
Dorkus, Dan, All:
Interesting thread. I was fortunate to obtain 2 250ASP and 2 250A modules a few months ago. I built a dual-mono amp using the 2 250ASP's and have about 500 hours on it with no problems whatsoever.
Initially, my impression of the amp mirrored Dorkus': thin, cold, yet extremely resolving. That changed, with time, to a much fuller, warmer sound. Unlike Dorkus, I found PC's to make a big difference. A DIY 10AWG UPOCC Neotech with Oyaide IEC and Hubbell plug was a major improvement. Internal signal wires and output wiring make noticeable differences, as does internal AC wire. I'm still working on voicing those.
I had a Bel Canto S300 in my system for several weeks. It's a better amp than mine, but more subject to EMI and RFI. Mine has internal shielding.
In November, the "NY Audio Rave" did listening tests of three ICEpower amps (Bel Canto S300, Henry Ho H2O), mine, and two UCD's, one of which was battery powered. They all sounded more similar than different in that system, with personal preferences seeming to outweigh "better" or "best".
Regards,
Larry Welsh
NYC
Dorkus, Dan, All:
Interesting thread. I was fortunate to obtain 2 250ASP and 2 250A modules a few months ago. I built a dual-mono amp using the 2 250ASP's and have about 500 hours on it with no problems whatsoever.
Initially, my impression of the amp mirrored Dorkus': thin, cold, yet extremely resolving. That changed, with time, to a much fuller, warmer sound. Unlike Dorkus, I found PC's to make a big difference. A DIY 10AWG UPOCC Neotech with Oyaide IEC and Hubbell plug was a major improvement. Internal signal wires and output wiring make noticeable differences, as does internal AC wire. I'm still working on voicing those.
I had a Bel Canto S300 in my system for several weeks. It's a better amp than mine, but more subject to EMI and RFI. Mine has internal shielding.
In November, the "NY Audio Rave" did listening tests of three ICEpower amps (Bel Canto S300, Henry Ho H2O), mine, and two UCD's, one of which was battery powered. They all sounded more similar than different in that system, with personal preferences seeming to outweigh "better" or "best".
Regards,
Larry Welsh
NYC
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