Reviewing audio gear is indeed a hard task.
Suppose a reviewer who has a system that lacks a certain aspect of reproduction. His/her mind (brain) is likly to compensate for that, at least in the long run.Simply getting used to it, perhapes not in a perfect way , but at least partionally.
Now, if one component of the system is changed , so that the "missing " aspect is now delivered and perceived , it´s likely that the reviewer reports this product as very good.The reviewer´s brain doesn´t have to compensate any longer(or does it still?). But the new product may very well have the missing aspect in abundance,and the system , as a whole,can still not be considered a real good one.
Of course, one run into some philosophical issues here !🙄
Is a system which faults are balanced and compensated for, and sounds as good as a nearly "perfect" system; is the compensated system really an inferior one?
I read about someone who had replaced his Tripath-based amp with an OTL(output transformerless tube amp) . He reported that listening fatique was no longer an issue. But , as some of you already have mentioned, maybe the roots of listning fatique may have another source, and the OTL "simply" filters this away ,fills in what´s missing, or compensates for it in one way or another?
Far more research in how we perceive reproduced music is needed,I think. How about a research fondation that recieves 1% of the audio companies advertisment expensures?
😕
Suppose a reviewer who has a system that lacks a certain aspect of reproduction. His/her mind (brain) is likly to compensate for that, at least in the long run.Simply getting used to it, perhapes not in a perfect way , but at least partionally.
Now, if one component of the system is changed , so that the "missing " aspect is now delivered and perceived , it´s likely that the reviewer reports this product as very good.The reviewer´s brain doesn´t have to compensate any longer(or does it still?). But the new product may very well have the missing aspect in abundance,and the system , as a whole,can still not be considered a real good one.
Of course, one run into some philosophical issues here !🙄
Is a system which faults are balanced and compensated for, and sounds as good as a nearly "perfect" system; is the compensated system really an inferior one?
I read about someone who had replaced his Tripath-based amp with an OTL(output transformerless tube amp) . He reported that listening fatique was no longer an issue. But , as some of you already have mentioned, maybe the roots of listning fatique may have another source, and the OTL "simply" filters this away ,fills in what´s missing, or compensates for it in one way or another?
Far more research in how we perceive reproduced music is needed,I think. How about a research fondation that recieves 1% of the audio companies advertisment expensures?
😕
Hi,
I'm seeing all kinds of assumptions here, like no cross over distortion in class D, there can be.
Like class d having coldness, like PWM being bad, like DSD being the same as PWM....
Perhaps the coldness perceived is due to one's own preconceptions of what "digital" sound ought to be. Perhaps it's most often in the recording.. Perhaps it's just too revealing for the rest of the system? Perhaps the rest of the implementation is not up to par?
Perhaps when looking at a new technology it would be best to make a conscious effort to leave the preconceptions at the door and look at it in a new light?
Regards,
Chris
I'm seeing all kinds of assumptions here, like no cross over distortion in class D, there can be.
Like class d having coldness, like PWM being bad, like DSD being the same as PWM....
Perhaps the coldness perceived is due to one's own preconceptions of what "digital" sound ought to be. Perhaps it's most often in the recording.. Perhaps it's just too revealing for the rest of the system? Perhaps the rest of the implementation is not up to par?
Perhaps when looking at a new technology it would be best to make a conscious effort to leave the preconceptions at the door and look at it in a new light?
Regards,
Chris
We perceive the world not as it is, but in the way we are.
Regardless of our attitudes;with positive or negative preconceptions about class D.😉
But with an open mind, the initial reaction of something as solely good or bad,can be exchanged for an opinion with some more shades.I hope.
Regardless of our attitudes;with positive or negative preconceptions about class D.😉
But with an open mind, the initial reaction of something as solely good or bad,can be exchanged for an opinion with some more shades.I hope.
The golden mean said:
Exactly. However such an exchange only comes with a much deeper look, leading to understanding.
Chris, the coldness I hear looks to me to be in the class D architecture as I hear the very same quality in UcD, Sonic Impact, Charlize, PS Audio and Panasonic. It is a quality I do not hear in tube and ss amplification. Prior to hearing class D amps, I'd never heard that particular quality. I'd call that perceiving something new, no?
classd4sure said:
i agree, which is why i never open up gear at the start of my review. i listened to this particular amp about a month before curiousity got the better of me, although i of course suspected it was Class D based. but my experience with Class D is too limited for me to have a strong opinion on how the technology sounds, so i am not yet ready to entirely write it off as "cold"-sounding.
the bigger problem for me is dealing with system interaction issues. clearly the ICEPower amp is not a good match for my Merlins, which are voiced somewhat for tube amplification. i had the same problem when i tried to review Peter's original Gainclone, did not sound good with my speakers at all. it's an ongoing problem for me, as i am not a tube person... there was another speaker i had a while back which was voiced for solid state amps, wish i had that around still.
TNT, Meitner's SACD equipment is indeed top notch. It has excellent frequency extension, resolution, dynamics, etc. The DAC also plays PCM the best I'd heard (it essentially upsamples PCM into DSD) until ..... I began playing music from my computer. Go figure, I now output a digital signal to the Meitner DAC via optical and prefer the sound, a result likely due to the lower jitter of hard-drive playback. I plan soon to use Steve Nugent's USB computer solution, which Steve will likely hardwire inside my Meitner unit. Could be shockingly good sound if computer driven audio is as good as Steve says it is.
I hope that you realize that the PS audio amp that you are refering to is ICEpower based.
It would help you as a reviewer to do some more research.
I have read numerous reviews on icepower based amps, and while they are pretty much all based on the same OEM components, the reviewer in all cases failed to inform the reader that almost the same same amp could be had in a different case and at a very different price.
The quote below is taken from the following link, it is a good read on the audio press:
http://www.high-endaudio.com/magaz.html
"The magazines' "don't ask, don't tell" policy doesn't stop there. For further protection, they will not even compare any of the (now rare) reasonably priced cables to any of the high-priced models, unless they already know that they are inferior (a "fix"). Why?
The magazines know that if even one low-priced cable is better, the entire myth that all high-quality cables must also be high-priced will be shattered, permanently.
The magazines have never compromised their "total package of protection" for the cable companies. That's why there exists today a "reference speaker cable", with "rave reviews", from a very well known "manufacturer", which retails at $ 9,500 for an 8' pair, while his own cost is less than $ 100 from the real cable manufacturer, and he can still "sleep like a baby". (Yes, under $ 100 dollars, including terminations!)"
It would help you as a reviewer to do some more research.
I have read numerous reviews on icepower based amps, and while they are pretty much all based on the same OEM components, the reviewer in all cases failed to inform the reader that almost the same same amp could be had in a different case and at a very different price.
The quote below is taken from the following link, it is a good read on the audio press:
http://www.high-endaudio.com/magaz.html
"The magazines' "don't ask, don't tell" policy doesn't stop there. For further protection, they will not even compare any of the (now rare) reasonably priced cables to any of the high-priced models, unless they already know that they are inferior (a "fix"). Why?
The magazines know that if even one low-priced cable is better, the entire myth that all high-quality cables must also be high-priced will be shattered, permanently.
The magazines have never compromised their "total package of protection" for the cable companies. That's why there exists today a "reference speaker cable", with "rave reviews", from a very well known "manufacturer", which retails at $ 9,500 for an 8' pair, while his own cost is less than $ 100 from the real cable manufacturer, and he can still "sleep like a baby". (Yes, under $ 100 dollars, including terminations!)"
..... assembled in China.
What I really get a kick out of is when you see obvious gimmicks get rave reviews...
"I was sceptic at first.............. made me a believer....... now part of our reference system....... Editors Choice award."
cph2000 said:
hm, did not know that, thanks. has ICEpower been around that long? i was referring to the old HCA-2 (?) i believe, which came out i... 2002? not sure, but it's been replaced by newer models.
yes, i was just thinking this myself when i discovered what was inside. i'm going to have to talk to my editor about it, but i'm planning to address the question of what difference it makes buying one ICEpower-based amp over another, the only physical difference most likely being the chassis. really then, shouldn't one just buy the cheapest one, assumming the customer service and build quality is adequate? i suppose the construction of the chassis will have some bearing on sound quality, but still...
btw, i like to think the magazine i write for addresses the ills of the audio publication world that you mention - we're not for profit and accept no advertising, and have developed a reputation for telling it like it is and helping the "little guys" in the industry vs. kow-towing to the big advertisers. for some time now, my editor has been advocating a DIY speaker cable made from 6 gauge wire available at hardware stores. it has completely replaced all mega-buck products as his reference wire, and i think has left some wire makers rather peeved... i made a pair myself, and i must say it is the most transparent speaker wire i have used, and you can't beat the price (less than 50 cents a foot?).
the one downside is we sometimes have trouble getting the more "mainstream" makers to send us gear, as there's always a chance we'll reveal their amp is inferior to something costing 1/4th as much. 😛 i tried in vain for months to get an integrated amp from a famous maker in Australia, i think they were still scared by a lukewarm review my editor gave one of their amps several years ago.
i've actually stopped reading commercial publications as i find them almost utterly useless. there's one relatively new online publication that i especially revile... every one of their articles is nothing but contrived drivel that manages to say absolutely nothing in the most words possible. one of my favorite quotes:
🙄
Im glad to read that you will do a fair comparison of the ice power amp.
Regarding PS audio take a look here:
http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/sw2130.asp
Could you please post a link to the DIY cable, that sounds very nice
Regarding PS audio take a look here:
http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/sw2130.asp
Could you please post a link to the DIY cable, that sounds very nice
dorkus said:
I hope more clue in and do the same, then everyone who thinks they know something by parroting their drivel may have to put some effort into it and learn something.
I can't stand it when they start quoting them... but I like that quote, please, let's have this URL shall we? That way when I'm feeling low and need a laugh I'll have something to read.
Who do you write for?
Regards,
Chris
aaaaahhhhhhh.... it's 6moons, isn't it?? Yes..... yes ... I've changed a few pairs of underwear thanks to them.
You might be right on the old PS audio amp - that its not ICEpower based, as only the newer models are listed at the ICEpower site.
The old ones were a unique design of their own. Seperate power supplies for all stages, I think it had a discrete input stage, some good ideas went into it. I don't know that much about it other than that, but I guess if ICEpower replaced them...
FYI: Here is a list of ice power vendors that I know of:
PS audio
jeff rowland
red dragon audio
acoustic reality
belcanto
embla audio
jjaz
B&O
Bertram Audio
PS audio
jeff rowland
red dragon audio
acoustic reality
belcanto
embla audio
jjaz
B&O
Bertram Audio
The magazines are of course dependent on the payments from the advertisers. But shouldn´t it be possible to publish blind-tests of different cable, amps etc, on the web?
Stereophiles argument (one of them at least)against blindfold testing,is that during such a test,the participants tend to try to be able to recognize the objects in the first place,and this will inevitably have consequenses.
Thus , to recognize a certain amp or cable , they say , tend to be more important than to evaluate the object, e.g. to tell the best or the second best item.
I don´t believe in this!
At times Stereophile has had references to quantumechanics in the magazines disapproval of blind-testing, but letters to the Editor from well educated readers, who oppose the mag´s views, hopefully make the reviewers more careful not to write about matters they obviously know little about!😉
However, I truely enjoy that we can speak freely here, and deal with the difficulties in assessment of audio gear!
Stereophiles argument (one of them at least)against blindfold testing,is that during such a test,the participants tend to try to be able to recognize the objects in the first place,and this will inevitably have consequenses.
Thus , to recognize a certain amp or cable , they say , tend to be more important than to evaluate the object, e.g. to tell the best or the second best item.
I don´t believe in this!
At times Stereophile has had references to quantumechanics in the magazines disapproval of blind-testing, but letters to the Editor from well educated readers, who oppose the mag´s views, hopefully make the reviewers more careful not to write about matters they obviously know little about!😉
However, I truely enjoy that we can speak freely here, and deal with the difficulties in assessment of audio gear!
cph2000 said:Could you please post a link to the DIY cable, that sounds very nice
check out this page:
http://www.boundforsound.com/ReadWrit.html
under the top heading, "Lowe's Letters"
it's very simple, there is a 6 gauge wire called "THWN" or "THHN" you can buy at big hardware stores like Home Depot and Lowes here in the States. it is stranded copper, i forget the exact composition but it's around 19 strands. the jacket is a tough oil-resistant nylon. it is stiff, but bendable enough to be not too impractical. i have a 500ft roll that i bought for $75 or so.
all you have to do is lightly twist the wires together, use some wire ties or heat shrink at the ends, and figure out how to terminate it. i have some 6 gauge copper rings that work well with the newer cardas posts. Kimber Postmaster spades also fit, but they are rather soft and can get really twisted up under the weight/torsion of the cable. i have also fit them into bananas by clipping some extra strands, but you have to be careful to bend the wire to relieve excessive pressure after connecting it, one of my bananas bent and broke. you will also want a hot soldering iron, my 35 watt tip takes forever to heat up all that copper.
even if you buy some esoteric terminations the cost of a typical stereo set is well under $100. the sound is incredibly clean and dyanmic. a word of caution: it is ruthlessly revealing, so if your previous cables were acting as filters, the results may not be pretty. 🙂
classd4sure said:
i could be wrong, but perhaps the switch to ICEPower was more for economic reasons. if i were an audio manufacturer and someone was selling a ready-built module like that which sounded good, i'd be tempted too...
nevertheless, i did like that old PS Audio amp of their own design. yes, it used a discrete JFET input stage i believe, and i thought the sound was very nice. i did encounter a weird instability once though... i was hooking up my subwoofer using a speaker-to-line-level adapter (just a shunt/series attenuator), and all of a sudden the attenuator started smoking! i can only guess the amp went into some sort of high-power oscillation. later on i wound up blowing out the amp's input section, possibly with a defective preamp, so i never was able to finish the review.
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