i'm currently evaluating a commercial amplifier for the audio magazine i write for. i don't know if i'm at liberty to say who makes it, but i opened it up and discovered the amp is simply a pair of ICEpower 250ASP modules. i didn't really know anything about ICEpower so i did some digging around, including some threads in this forum...
anyway i know it's rather moot to talk about ICEpower here since they're unattainable to non-OEM's, but just if anyone is curious, i'm currently listening to it in my system. i've only listened to two other switching amps before (the T-amp and a PS Audio model), and it sounds a little different... with my speakers it's rather on the cool side, lean in the upper bass/lower midrange. it's very transparent, with terrific imaging, but the leanness is an issue in my system. i should probably give the amp some more break-in time however.
i'm catching up with my audio reading and am looking into the UcD stuff. i might have to pick up a couple modules, they sound like fun...
cheers,
dorkus
p.s. after a long hiatus from DIYAudio, hello to whomever remembers me. 🙂 and no, i never built the Son of Dork preamplifier project... 🙄
anyway i know it's rather moot to talk about ICEpower here since they're unattainable to non-OEM's, but just if anyone is curious, i'm currently listening to it in my system. i've only listened to two other switching amps before (the T-amp and a PS Audio model), and it sounds a little different... with my speakers it's rather on the cool side, lean in the upper bass/lower midrange. it's very transparent, with terrific imaging, but the leanness is an issue in my system. i should probably give the amp some more break-in time however.
i'm catching up with my audio reading and am looking into the UcD stuff. i might have to pick up a couple modules, they sound like fun...
cheers,
dorkus
p.s. after a long hiatus from DIYAudio, hello to whomever remembers me. 🙂 and no, i never built the Son of Dork preamplifier project... 🙄
IcePower review welcome
Like many have said, measurements don't mean everything in high end audio. So we will be intereested in your review of unnamed amp.
It would be also interesting to know if the subject Icepower modules have gone thru some audiophile mods, or/and the rest of configuration of the amp.
I have measured an amp based on Icepower 1000ASP. I was disappointed about the real measurements vs advertized measurements, and the real sound quality. But what else is new?
Like many have said, measurements don't mean everything in high end audio. So we will be intereested in your review of unnamed amp.
It would be also interesting to know if the subject Icepower modules have gone thru some audiophile mods, or/and the rest of configuration of the amp.
I have measured an amp based on Icepower 1000ASP. I was disappointed about the real measurements vs advertized measurements, and the real sound quality. But what else is new?
I have a 2x250Watt icepower in my system right now - it has a well build dual mono PSU, and a special regulated psu for the driverstage of the ICEpower - wery well build with nice psu caps and so on.
Compared to my Pass Zen amp, and especially my 3886 gainclone - this amp has abundance of power reserves - and it plays "neighbor bass" - the bass controll seems so be thigth you dont hear the bass, and theres no distortion, so you dont get a feel of how loud you are playing - but when I go into the kitchen for some coffey, you hear how loud you are playing, and you hear the bass boom....
I think it has a good detail level, but it seems a bit leaned back, the treble is no pronounced - but what I find problematic, is the reproducion of space - my gainclone has it in aboundance - the soundstage is not only between my speakers, it is also on the sides of them - and the music and details seems to "live longer" and not die out so quickly as i ecperience with the ICEpower. Ok - mabye its because the gainclone is bright and treble focused some migth say - but my Zen4 is rather dark sounding, not focusing on the treble - and it also reproduces the soundstage as beeing large, and the notes kind of hang in the air - this the ICE can't do - it sounds very relaxed, not harsh or anything, and has a good detail level, epsecially in ht midrange, but I feel it lacks someting, as described above.
Beeing a "Class A lover", this knowledge kind of pleases me - theres no need to give up those big, power sucking monsters yet - you can't have it all - yet... 🙂
Cheers !
Hans
Compared to my Pass Zen amp, and especially my 3886 gainclone - this amp has abundance of power reserves - and it plays "neighbor bass" - the bass controll seems so be thigth you dont hear the bass, and theres no distortion, so you dont get a feel of how loud you are playing - but when I go into the kitchen for some coffey, you hear how loud you are playing, and you hear the bass boom....
I think it has a good detail level, but it seems a bit leaned back, the treble is no pronounced - but what I find problematic, is the reproducion of space - my gainclone has it in aboundance - the soundstage is not only between my speakers, it is also on the sides of them - and the music and details seems to "live longer" and not die out so quickly as i ecperience with the ICEpower. Ok - mabye its because the gainclone is bright and treble focused some migth say - but my Zen4 is rather dark sounding, not focusing on the treble - and it also reproduces the soundstage as beeing large, and the notes kind of hang in the air - this the ICE can't do - it sounds very relaxed, not harsh or anything, and has a good detail level, epsecially in ht midrange, but I feel it lacks someting, as described above.
Beeing a "Class A lover", this knowledge kind of pleases me - theres no need to give up those big, power sucking monsters yet - you can't have it all - yet... 🙂
Cheers !
Hans
KoolKid?
I've got some audiophile snakeoil to sell, you seem to fit my potential customer profile just fine, interested?
No, really, that's nuts, of course measurements matter, but only if done by a reputable third party. Thank God for measurements and journalists willing to take the high road and painstakingly compare published specs with accurately measured ones, else we'd all be buying NuForce or <picks up product brochure> pure-cotton wrapped optical cables with a shielding made from time-aligned silver molecules stretched to form a hexagonal mesh that keeps the bad electrons out <puts product brochure down>.
Really, measurements are the repellant to snakeoil salesmen and their loyal followers.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
I've got some audiophile snakeoil to sell, you seem to fit my potential customer profile just fine, interested?
No, really, that's nuts, of course measurements matter, but only if done by a reputable third party. Thank God for measurements and journalists willing to take the high road and painstakingly compare published specs with accurately measured ones, else we'd all be buying NuForce or <picks up product brochure> pure-cotton wrapped optical cables with a shielding made from time-aligned silver molecules stretched to form a hexagonal mesh that keeps the bad electrons out <puts product brochure down>.
Really, measurements are the repellant to snakeoil salesmen and their loyal followers.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Tom,
That's right, wouldn't have it any other way, just telling it like I see it, let the chips fall where they may.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
That's right, wouldn't have it any other way, just telling it like I see it, let the chips fall where they may.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
serengetiplains said:
agreed. 😛
the publication i write for is purely subjective and has never done any measurements, nor do we ever intend to. i have an engineering background myself though, so i like numbers and measurements... i just think a lot of the time they don't have a whole lot to do with how stuff sounds. 🙂 i also think they are highly misleading for consumers, and any consumer who lets published "specs" unduly influence their buying decision is, IMHO, severely misguided.
that all said, measurements are handy when trying to evaluate technical merit of a design, and of course to see if something is wrong with it. and i fully agree with Sander that we need to keep the manufacturers honest by measuring things ourself, as false marketing in any shape of form is a very bad thing.
anyway, back to the amp...
i took out one of the ICEpower modules. as far as i can tell, it is a stock part, with the exception of some white glue used to damp capacitors and inductors (tho perhaps this is stock too).
i'm listening to a little Mahler right now, and on my speakers (Merlin TSM-MX, which are admittedly lean themselves), i am still feeling the sound is threadbare... violins in particular lack body and are a tad strident. i also tried some little 1-way monitors i have, which are less bright than the Merlins, and i still felt the lower midrange was lacking. the treble can also be a little splashy, this DG recording is not that bright but it's sounding a little more forward than usual. still, there are some nice things about it... it is very detailed without being "etched." unlike Hans, i do not find the soundstaging lacking - it is actually one of the strengths as far as i can tell. ambient retrieval is good, tho i'm not sure about image yet.
in terms of "toe-tapping" music enjoyment factor, i'm a little on the fence at the moment. at times it provides a very insightful window into the performance, but also leaves me a little cold sometimes.
i'm going to play around with different power cords in a moment to see if it's sensitive to it. i wish i had more speakers to try, i have a feeling it is not "singing" with my Merlins. i probably need to break in more too, as i've only had it a month and it has less than 50 hours playing time on it (though it has been left on most of the time).
fyi my reference point is a lightly modded ME Sound 550 II with the high-capacitance option (something like 220,000uF filtering). it's not the be-all-and-end-all in transparency, but it is still an excellent amp. the editor of my mag has put it up against some very good and expensive amps, and it has held its own. its sound is not particularly solid state or tubey, but it has a quite even tonal balance, with great density in the midrange and a solid bass foundation (all that filtering must pay off).
other amps i have heard in my own system include: T-amp (battery and with external supply), Peter Daniel's Gainclone, Blue Circle Music Pumps (LM1875-based), PS Audio HCA-2 (switching amp), Parasound A23, Rega Brio, Audio Odyssey Stratos, McCormack DNA-1 Rev A, and some others i can't remember offhand.
the rest of the system is:
- modified Sony 222ES SACD player
- MSB MVC Gold preamp with P1000 power supply (fantastic btw!)
- JPS SuperConductor FX cables
- JPS UltraConductor speaker cables, homebrew ("Lowes") 6-gauge cable
- Audience PowerChord, AudioPrism SuperNatural S2 power cords
cheers,
dorkus
i took out one of the ICEpower modules. as far as i can tell, it is a stock part, with the exception of some white glue used to damp capacitors and inductors (tho perhaps this is stock too).
i'm listening to a little Mahler right now, and on my speakers (Merlin TSM-MX, which are admittedly lean themselves), i am still feeling the sound is threadbare... violins in particular lack body and are a tad strident. i also tried some little 1-way monitors i have, which are less bright than the Merlins, and i still felt the lower midrange was lacking. the treble can also be a little splashy, this DG recording is not that bright but it's sounding a little more forward than usual. still, there are some nice things about it... it is very detailed without being "etched." unlike Hans, i do not find the soundstaging lacking - it is actually one of the strengths as far as i can tell. ambient retrieval is good, tho i'm not sure about image yet.
in terms of "toe-tapping" music enjoyment factor, i'm a little on the fence at the moment. at times it provides a very insightful window into the performance, but also leaves me a little cold sometimes.
i'm going to play around with different power cords in a moment to see if it's sensitive to it. i wish i had more speakers to try, i have a feeling it is not "singing" with my Merlins. i probably need to break in more too, as i've only had it a month and it has less than 50 hours playing time on it (though it has been left on most of the time).
fyi my reference point is a lightly modded ME Sound 550 II with the high-capacitance option (something like 220,000uF filtering). it's not the be-all-and-end-all in transparency, but it is still an excellent amp. the editor of my mag has put it up against some very good and expensive amps, and it has held its own. its sound is not particularly solid state or tubey, but it has a quite even tonal balance, with great density in the midrange and a solid bass foundation (all that filtering must pay off).
other amps i have heard in my own system include: T-amp (battery and with external supply), Peter Daniel's Gainclone, Blue Circle Music Pumps (LM1875-based), PS Audio HCA-2 (switching amp), Parasound A23, Rega Brio, Audio Odyssey Stratos, McCormack DNA-1 Rev A, and some others i can't remember offhand.
the rest of the system is:
- modified Sony 222ES SACD player
- MSB MVC Gold preamp with P1000 power supply (fantastic btw!)
- JPS SuperConductor FX cables
- JPS UltraConductor speaker cables, homebrew ("Lowes") 6-gauge cable
- Audience PowerChord, AudioPrism SuperNatural S2 power cords
cheers,
dorkus
Hi Dorkus, I wonder if your being left a little cold listening to the ICE amp (please overlook the unintended pun) is perhaps an experience general to class D amps of perhaps any make? I've owned three versions (PS Audio, Tripath, UcD), and each, despite differences, were/are identifiably class D: see-through holographic, bass control like no other amp, presentationally (if you will) clean, tonally pure, and, in varying degrees, cold. On my personal audio register, these amps do more better than other amps I've owned, so I'm willing to give them a longer-term go. Some have suggested using a tube preamp to inject a measure of the warmth associated with other (particularly tube) amplifiers.
I suspect class D coldness has something to do with the way class D amps render high frequencies.
I suspect class D coldness has something to do with the way class D amps render high frequencies.
dorkus said:
That's stock alrigth. I have 1 pair of ASP1000 in my system sice last 4 months and I like them alot. In every respect. Anyone trying these amps should take notice of a few things:
- Run them for a long time before doing evalauation. By long, I mean several weeks continous power on and playing music. I noticed improvment as long as after 3 months.
- These amps are so transparent and in my opinion neutral, that you should try to alter/change things to get good sound in your system. It's worth it.
- See to that the amp(s) are on a solid bench. Put heavy things on them to dampen the chassis.
I regard these amps as SOTA for shure!
/
hi tom,
that could very well be the case, but i haven't had enough exposure yet to class D, so i'm hesitant to make a generalization yet.
hm, i've had in my system the Tripath (T-amp) and PSAudio (before i somehow blew out its input stage, never got a replacement to complete the review).
i'm hesitant to comment on the T-amp as it is very "conditionally" a good-sounding amp - it has a lot of compromises in stock form that i'd have to rectify with modification before i would be willing to critically evaluate it. nevertheless, i do think it's a nice sounding amp in many ways when used with an external PS (batteries are too weak).
the PSAudio i rather liked, it had a unique sonic signature that i have also heard from some other class D amps like the Bel Canto stuff... while not "tubey" at all, it had a certain density and smoothness in the midrange that i really liked. they also have a sense of stability and effortlessness that seem to come with the high efficiency of class D.
i do not find those amps as lean and cool as the current ICEpower amp i have, and this amp does not have the same kind of midrange density that i liked in the PSaudio (and to some extent the T-amp). on the other hand, the ICEpower seems to capture low-level detail and ambient info better than any amp i have had in-house - the sense of space around instruments is very palpable.
i played around with a few power cords - it's not as sensitive as some other (linear) amps i have used, tho there were some subtle differences. best cord was unfortunately the AudioPrism SuperNatural S2, unfortunate because it retails for $1200 (don't worry, i didn't buy it - reviewer perq 😉 ). but the stock cord is fine also, so that is what i am going to use now.
my editor has suggested this to me many times - tube pre, SS power used to be his combo of choice, before he discovered autoformer attenuation. i must profess though, i am not a tube kind of guy... i just can't get over the harmonic distortion which to my ears changes the timbre of instruments too much. i used to be a musician (violin), and my gf used to be an oboist, so we can't stand any deviation in tonality. to my ears SS, despite its shortcomings, is ultimately less colored. this is a blanket statement tho, i have heard some tube gear that i myself could definitely live with, but my wallet could not. 😉
that's possible. i don't think all class D is "cold" tonally - i thought the PS Audio was actually pretty warm - but cold in the sense of leaving me a little disconnected from the music. perhaps something about the HF is subliminally irritating or offputting.
btw i'd love to try a UcD amp sometime, it would be perfect for my father, who needs a powerful "low-maintenance" amp for his big listening room. he's not terribly fussy so i'm sure the sound quality is more than adequate. what PS audio amp did you have, and how does UcD compare?
cheers,
dorkus
serengetiplains said:
that could very well be the case, but i haven't had enough exposure yet to class D, so i'm hesitant to make a generalization yet.
hm, i've had in my system the Tripath (T-amp) and PSAudio (before i somehow blew out its input stage, never got a replacement to complete the review).
i'm hesitant to comment on the T-amp as it is very "conditionally" a good-sounding amp - it has a lot of compromises in stock form that i'd have to rectify with modification before i would be willing to critically evaluate it. nevertheless, i do think it's a nice sounding amp in many ways when used with an external PS (batteries are too weak).
the PSAudio i rather liked, it had a unique sonic signature that i have also heard from some other class D amps like the Bel Canto stuff... while not "tubey" at all, it had a certain density and smoothness in the midrange that i really liked. they also have a sense of stability and effortlessness that seem to come with the high efficiency of class D.
i do not find those amps as lean and cool as the current ICEpower amp i have, and this amp does not have the same kind of midrange density that i liked in the PSaudio (and to some extent the T-amp). on the other hand, the ICEpower seems to capture low-level detail and ambient info better than any amp i have had in-house - the sense of space around instruments is very palpable.
i played around with a few power cords - it's not as sensitive as some other (linear) amps i have used, tho there were some subtle differences. best cord was unfortunately the AudioPrism SuperNatural S2, unfortunate because it retails for $1200 (don't worry, i didn't buy it - reviewer perq 😉 ). but the stock cord is fine also, so that is what i am going to use now.
my editor has suggested this to me many times - tube pre, SS power used to be his combo of choice, before he discovered autoformer attenuation. i must profess though, i am not a tube kind of guy... i just can't get over the harmonic distortion which to my ears changes the timbre of instruments too much. i used to be a musician (violin), and my gf used to be an oboist, so we can't stand any deviation in tonality. to my ears SS, despite its shortcomings, is ultimately less colored. this is a blanket statement tho, i have heard some tube gear that i myself could definitely live with, but my wallet could not. 😉
that's possible. i don't think all class D is "cold" tonally - i thought the PS Audio was actually pretty warm - but cold in the sense of leaving me a little disconnected from the music. perhaps something about the HF is subliminally irritating or offputting.
btw i'd love to try a UcD amp sometime, it would be perfect for my father, who needs a powerful "low-maintenance" amp for his big listening room. he's not terribly fussy so i'm sure the sound quality is more than adequate. what PS audio amp did you have, and how does UcD compare?
cheers,
dorkus
TNT said:
good tip, thanks - something we all know but too readily ignore in our impatience, so it's good to be harped on this point. 🙂 my editor also emphasized this.
has anyone noticed that modern, IC-based, high-density circuits tend to take absolutely FOREVER to break in? e.g. digital players... perhaps because the power levels are so much lower nowadays, it takes longer for dielectrics to form etc.
yes, that's an issue too. i know the preamp to be very neutral, but the source (modified Sony) is an issue - i know it's a tad bright and grainy, and not the most liquid sounding thing. i'm trying to get my hands on a better digital front-end, hopefully my editor will find something fun for me at CES. 🙂
i'll need to rectify this part. right now the amp is sitting on my hardwood floor. i'll put it on my rack and add a tuning puck/weight.
thanks,
dorkus
p.s. forgot to mention, i have an ACI Titan subwoofer driven actively off the MSB preamp, so that obscures differences in amp bass response.
here's a pic of my equipment rack. i had to scale it down significantly, becoming more "lifestyle-conscious" and considerate towards the signficant other i suppose. 🙂
Attachments
Dorkus, I had the PS Audio HCA-2. What I call "coldness" looks to be what you call "feeling disconnected." My guess why class D amps produce this listener response is they do something funny to the natural decay of instruments, voices, etc., not wholly unlike what CD playback, to my ears, does to decay. I'm just not sure how to square this guess with the observation that class D amps excel, as IME they definitely do, in reproducing low-level information. Perhaps decay simply falls off too quickly with these amps .... going, going, hey, it's already gone! Or perhaps a certain high frequency content is left out of the decay? You might, while playing the ICE, run a super-tweeter off a high-bandwidth ss amp to test this.
TNT said:
are these the 1000A, or the 1000ASP with the built-in SMPS? if it's the former, what supply are you using? i wonder if the sound quality of the ASP models is limited by the built-in SMPS.
also, are ICEPower split-supply or single rail with floating outputs? if latter, are they using a blocking cap? if so i would guess this is a significant limiting factor in sound quality.
serengetiplains said:
yes, that would be a very strange combination of sonic traits, but quite possible. you are not alone either. i agree with the CD comment - to me CD sounds very "synthetic" compared to a live feed (or the real thing of course). SACD has also been accused of doing similar things. my editor dislikes how SACD seems to provide "blackness," a lack of background grain and noise, at the expense of killing the tail end of the decay, as if there's a heavy velvet curtain at the back of the stage. at the same time, i also find many SACDs to be more detailed and better at imaging... curiously, SACD is based on a PWM process (DSD) no unrelated to class D, so may be you're onto something here...
not saying i prefer vinyl either - i don't even own a turntable!
i'll have to enlist my gf for that, as her HF hearing is superior to mine - gender advantage. 🙂
Class D, to me, also sounds synthetic, but somewhat differently than CD sounds synthetic ... you could say class D is smooth synthetic, like a botox face: something right that leaves you feeling you're at the same time missing something.
Re CD and SACD, have you read the Positive Feedback interview of Meitner? Meitner has some interesting things to say about PCM coding and how, in his opinion, it does things foreign to audio. I've listened extensively to Meitner's SACD gear, and find it to sound the way reviewers say it sounds, including as having a greater measure of decay that PCM lacks.
Meitner Interview
Re CD and SACD, have you read the Positive Feedback interview of Meitner? Meitner has some interesting things to say about PCM coding and how, in his opinion, it does things foreign to audio. I've listened extensively to Meitner's SACD gear, and find it to sound the way reviewers say it sounds, including as having a greater measure of decay that PCM lacks.
Meitner Interview
dorkus said:
Maybe he dosen't hear the actual aucoustic background through his tube (?) distorsion, hum and noise when playing SACD. Presented with a large S/N can cause some problems really. Turning up listing levels to realistic one is a good start to explore high dynamic / low noise capabilies. The ice power 117 db s/n helps here!
I stick to that ice-power is more transparent and correct than most of the today existing power amps. For some people trying them, it's a chock and they typically blaim the amps rather than turning to the rest of the system components - it's a pity, the miss out of a lot.
The meitner article was an interesting read. I don't really think however that his PCM vs. DSD discussion is relevant to Class A(/B) - Class D comparision as there is no quantization in either.
Al types of conversions are bad - in the class D case, the advantages in the output stage (0 crossover dist etc) seems to overcome the negativ of the pwm conversion.
SerengetiP: "I've listened extensively to Meitner's SACD gear, and find it to sound the way reviewers say it sounds, including as having a greater measure of decay that PCM lacks." - so You liked it then ;-)
TNT said:
i know that not to be the case at all. he's not a tube guy, and he has access to some of the cleanest amps money can buy (think high-end stuff from Pass, Edge, etc.). i know based on his listening preferences that he prefers the cleanest, most brutally honest window on the performance possible to tube euphonics any day.
still don't think that's the issue, seeing as he has access to aforementioned high-powered amps and very low distortion speakers, as well as some of the finest commercial digital and analog playback systems available.
don't get me wrong, i like SACD (i'm listening to one right now, Coltrane Lush Life), but i think there is some legitimacy to what he is talking about. i do hear the "velvet curtain effect" with some SACDs (Channel Classics, Sony pure DSD sutff), but not others (Living Stereo reissues). interestingly i find the analog remasters to DSD to be superior to pure digital DSD recordings in this respect.
i also had a theory similar to yours, that perhaps he was too used to the graininess of PCM, particularly at zero-crossing where you get all the quantization noise, but without hearing his system for myself i can't really say.
yes, that's always a possibility/problem whenever something groundbreakingly-transparent comes out... it upsets all the finely balanced complementary colorations people worked so hard to attain in their systems. i'm trying to ascertain if that's the case here or not, i definitely do hear some very good things from this amp.
i don't think that was the suggestion, that linear vs. class D is like PCM vs. DSD. rather, it was that class D might share some sonic traits with DSD. obviously all these systems have a "sound" (nothing is perfectly transparent), class D has a different type of sound from linear.
i changed speaker wires, and in the process cleaned all my system's signal connections/terminals with some Pro-gold (they were quite dirty), and things are sounding better. will give the amp more break-in before coming to any firm conclusions. while low-level detail and ambience is excellent, i am feeling some vagueness, a lack of solidity, to images on the stage... possibly related to the lack of density i referred to earlier. i'm hoping this firms up with time.
If my memory servs me rigth - the sound was abit tinny at first but got more body. This impression was for the whole freq range barring the lower range. The top range was also not clean out of the box.
It is with the ease and the totally uncorreleted way different things in the sound stage is going on that make me prefer these amps. To me it reassamble music in a way that I haven't been bale to achive with any other amps I have auditioned / ownded. Other either sound dull or if not, colored in comparison.
Happy listening and good luck with the review!
/
PS. The are environment freindly also which is a good thing ;-) - save the Pandas! DS.
It is with the ease and the totally uncorreleted way different things in the sound stage is going on that make me prefer these amps. To me it reassamble music in a way that I haven't been bale to achive with any other amps I have auditioned / ownded. Other either sound dull or if not, colored in comparison.
Happy listening and good luck with the review!
/
PS. The are environment freindly also which is a good thing ;-) - save the Pandas! DS.
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