I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

[abraxalito]

Lol, I never thought about emotionally loading 😱 Im sorry but isnt everyone involved success, very confident individuals that have no problems making conclusions opposing the general view??

Evident from this thread, not so. Confident individuals don't make cheap shots at others for a start. Confident individuals don't belittle others or marginalise their experience. Truly confident individuals don't derive their confidence from being a tribe member, whichever tribe that might happen to be. If this thread was only posted to by confident individuals there would be no mud-slinging or pot shots between 'them' and 'us' but just reasonable and reasoned discussion of the evidence. Sound too boring for you?😀

That opinion above doesnt fly at all. Its simply a common excuse to get out of doing the proper testing and an excuse to be used when the true results show you couldnt tell the difference. Its a perfect out and not remotely honest.

Where did I post up an opinion? Just highlight the opinion you're claiming is 'not remotely honest' please.

 

[doug20]

Something meaningless.......

So you want to take this path again, Come on guys just answer the questions stick to the topic and stop being passive aggressive. If you can not handle questions then stop posting! Even small bits of sarcasm are taking way over the top, obviously none of you play sports because you have no mechanism for handling it. Here is a hint, stop taking it all so seriously. There are good questions to be answered...you can answer those and ignore the rest.

There is no emotional baggages to DBTs, only scared audiophiles would think so (Scared from knowing the truth).

You posted that you think they hear what they hear. That is a meaningless statement....are you ever going to comment on the external variables that are important?

 

[abraxalito]

So you do not think external variables impact the conclusions enough to matter? Example Brand name and $$$ has no impact on the listener believing there is better SQ??

Of course $$$ and brand name and technology used make a big difference to most listeners. Except when they're blinded under test conditions.

Here is one of those crazy thoughts....you have no worries about emotional loading in DBTs!!

Can't follow you. Who is the 'you' here? Me personally?

I suspect you define "hear" different then I do. "Hear" is simply the signal from the ear to the brain for me.

I suspect you've understood less neuroscience than I have. There is no such 'signal from the ear to the brain' if by signal, you mean a flow of information i.e. the normal meaning of the word signal. There is interaction between the brain and the ear though, but information flow between the two it is clearly not.

What they conclude is what they hear plus a whole bunch of HIGHLY subjective variables that the Brain already processed BEFORE they even listened.

Who is the 'they' ? The subjectivists? If so, then the same would necessarily be true for objectivists seeing as no-one I know of is exempt from subconscious suggestion.

 

[abraxalito]

So you want to take this path again, Come on guys just answer the questions stick to the topic and stop being passive aggressive.

Excuse me😱 Are you saying here that I'm being passive aggressive? And you are qualified to recognise such?😀

If you can not handle questions then stop posting!

Straw man. I myself handle all valid questions I perceive. By valid here I mean those like 'When did you stop beating your wife?' are excluded.

There is no emotional baggages to DBTs, only scared audiophiles would think so (Scared from knowing the truth).

QED. If they're scared then they've got emotional baggage. You've just demonstrated my point very neatly, thanks😀

You posted that you think they hear what they hear.

That's a dishonest claim as I've never posted any such thing. They do hear what they hear, my opinion notwithstanding.

That is a meaningless statement....are you ever going to comment on the external variables that are important?

What external variables? Price and brand? Have already done so.

 

[terry j]

It is not the SIGHT of cables or other equipment that is important. The identity of the component attached to the label does NOT have to be identified until AFTER the testing is all done. Even the label could be randomly computer generated, and changed after a series of tests, perhaps a different day.
This puts things into confusion doesn't it? So long as we can make a direct comparison, we can discern differences. ONLY ABX throws us off.
No why doesn't somebody who has actually studied the human brain tell us why.

Hi john, I have been 'championing' your test set up, but then started thinking a little.

So you seem fine on 'blinded', and presumably fine on levelmatched, but I am missing an essential point. You do not want the X part, only A or B.

So on A you can hear a milk chocolate midrange, and on B a white chocolate midrange. You can SEE A or B, and as you can see which it is you know it is a milk or white chocolate midrange.

Whenever you see A, it is milk, whenever you see B it is white (say).

Just where in your protocol do you show the difference??

Yeah, fine as far as it goes. Yet the 'test subject' is still someone amenable to subconscious suggestion. In the blind test conditions, he's like a performing animal.

I do get what you are saying, for example (as it came out of this thread) I would imagine Tom-unfortunately-would feel these very things.

If for example someone did their own testing blind on a component, be it an amp or cable or whatever, why do these things not come into play?

I would argue it is NOT dbt per se, but the circumstances of 'why' the dbt came into play. As you mentioned, let's say I (or with a friend) out of sheer curiosity decided to do a dbt. So we would not feel these pressures of PUBLIC performance.

Yet, these cable decisions people have made have never been public decisions, so *if* they had done it blind, would you still argue that the dbt process itself has confounded things?

Where I think DBTs have the most value is where the subject is also the experimenter.

Can understand the point.

I can think of plenty more possibilities for unconscious bias. "I'll look a nutter if I can't hear this" ; "objectivists will sneer at me if I don't get it right" just for starters. In my experience, unconscious beliefs have to be emotionally loaded to be effective, so I don't think your example qualifies.

To be fair to fredex, I think these 'extra' possibilities are a direct result of his hypothesis...(more pressure on Tom by continually referring to him..let's hope he meant it when he said he would stop reading the thread!) the guy goes into the test completely confident it will be a walk in the park. Otherwise he would be wise (like John Curl) to not get himself into that situation in the first place.

When the 'switch' is thrown,and he suddenly gets that sinking feeling in his chest that it is NOT the walk in the park he thought it would be, which fulfils fredex's point, THEN these (possible) secondary pressures you mentioned would come into play.

Alternatively, he thinks he has breezed it...and only finds out afterwards his answers are no better than chance. In that case,he has not even gotten to 'objectivists will laugh at me'.

Well here we'd do well not to use 'imagine' for various reasons.

Only wanted to answer a point you made a while ago, sorry for being tardy. For sure, in the heat of the argument SOME might resort to denying that the person believes he can hear differences. I don't. I cannot imagine why anyone would get on and lie, tho it could happen I suppose.

If they say they hear it, I believe that they hear it. We only have different reasons for them hearing what they hear.

Don't forget the other side (if you are condemning some peoples response to statements) that *we* will be accused of not having good hearing, poor systems, only 'listening to test tones'. In a heated debate neither side as a group can be considered saintly.

Yes, so then let's employ scepticism towards the stated causes but accept that people do indeed hear what they say they hear.

Damn. My editing was not too crash hot, already covered (and agreed) with this.

It didn't do it for me. It could be that I take myself too seriously, but I veer more towards an alternative explanation. I guess it's because living in China there are so many kinds of tofu which I come across that the generic phrase 'piece of tofu' didn't trigger my imagination circuits. If he'd said 'deep-fried chunk of stinky tofu' that would have worked a treat I think. Added to that 'Turing filter' did not ring any bells. So I think SY could get himself a better script writer😀

I had a chuckle. Maybe my sense of humour bar is much lower than yours. I chuckle at olblueyz too.

Meant to ask, watchya doing in china?? Now you'll prob say 'I was born here'..but the english flag and china together has me wondering.

 

[boconnor]

Forget blind testing, too many variables and it will give no scientific proof. 😎

From that statement it seems you don’t understand the basis of DBTs, or why it is considered the “gold standard” for scientific research where bias is minimised in experiments.

I just don't think using human test subjects is adequate or reliable enough to make any sort of conclusion that could be accepted as "proof". 😕

If the claim being tested is audibility, then you need people to do the listening. That’s part of the DBT process. You imply discounting the role of people because of their inadequacy or unreliability – but that is nonsensical. You design the experiment to minimise bias, given what we know about people. Again, you need to read up on DBTs – you clearly have a misunderstanding about them.

If it takes me a week to notice a better impact on a kick drum on Edgar Winters "Frankenstein" then it is obvious that small samples in such a test would be useless.

How do you know that? By what evidence?

That is all hypothetical, how can I answer it?

You answered that it was hypothetical to show measurements that indicated two cables were the same electrically. Those measurements are easy to make, reproducible and certainly very real. How are they hypothetical?

Obviously the purest signal will better highlight any degradation of the signal right??? This is why people with poor performing equipment need not spend much money on cables and it is also why I think some sort guide for the average Joe Schmoe wold be helpful. ….

If cable A makes a signal audibly different compared with cable B then it should make any signal it passes different. Unless, of course, you are now claiming that the cable “knows” that the signal is from a device below your stated dollar threshold and “chooses” to pass it unaltered.

Just because DBT is the only thing we, you, or I can come up with doesnt make it the best method and it certainly doesn't equate to proof. 😉

Actually science does regard the DBT as the best method for removing bias from experiments. So what is your suggestion for replacing the DBT procedure?

 

[abraxalito]

I do get what you are saying, for example (as it came out of this thread) I would imagine Tom-unfortunately-would feel these very things.

I'd imagine so but equally well the relationship between the tester and the testee seems fairly amicable by the way SY posts. He's not being hurried into the tests, taking his time to prepare for them. So this all bodes well for the results. Yet still there will be decisions to be made if its a traditional ABX and I posted my thoughts about that up earlier on.

If for example someone did their own testing blind on a component, be it an amp or cable or whatever, why do these things not come into play?

How would they do their own testing blind if by themselves?

I would argue it is NOT dbt per se, but the circumstances of 'why' the dbt came into play. As you mentioned, let's say I (or with a friend) out of sheer curiosity decided to do a dbt. So we would not feel these pressures of PUBLIC performance.

Right - when the 'why' is pure curiosity, then I'd expect the lowest levels of subconscious bias. If there's some attachment to the results on either (or more likely both) sides, that's a sign that unconscious bias is operative.

Yet, these cable decisions people have made have never been public decisions, so *if* they had done it blind, would you still argue that the dbt process itself has confounded things?

Sorry, not with you here. These decisions are purchase decisions or decisions within the DBT itself?

To be fair to fredex, I think these 'extra' possibilities are a direct result of his hypothesis...(more pressure on Tom by continually referring to him..let's hope he meant it when he said he would stop reading the thread!) the guy goes into the test completely confident it will be a walk in the park. Otherwise he would be wise (like John Curl) to not get himself into that situation in the first place.

The points I made about differences in RF screening between cables haven't generated much contoversy, but I wonder how the RF environment will be controlled (if at all) in the tests. If my hypothesis about noise modulation has any substance, then its a variable that does need to be controlled. Likewise another issue that I have so far not raised on this thread -- shielding/ground impedance. If anyone would like me to hold forth on this, I'd be happy to write something. Its an issue I'm dealing with right now in my own research.

When the 'switch' is thrown,and he suddenly gets that sinking feeling in his chest that it is NOT the walk in the park he thought it would be, which fulfils fredex's point, THEN these (possible) secondary pressures you mentioned would come into play.

If he gets that sinking feeling, that in itself is indication of unconscious influence. Better for the impartiality of the test results if he has no opinion or expectation at all prior to the test🙂

Alternatively, he thinks he has breezed it...and only finds out afterwards his answers are no better than chance. In that case,he has not even gotten to 'objectivists will laugh at me'.

That would indeed be an interesting case - where he was sure he heard differences under blind conditions but the evidence showed he did no better than chance.

If they say they hear it, I believe that they hear it. We only have different reasons for them hearing what they hear.

I guess its the much maligned epistemologist in me, but its not to me a matter of belief that they hear what they say they hear. I take it as axiomatic - without such an axiom I think we're mired in relativism and can't do any real science as then its open to anyone else on a whim to override our perceptions.

Don't forget the other side (if you are condemning some peoples response to statements) that *we* will be accused of not having good hearing, poor systems, only 'listening to test tones'. In a heated debate neither side as a group can be considered saintly.

The saint will be the one who doesn't feel the heat. This is quite open to being measured 'objectively', so if we want to find out who to disregard in discussion, we can always wire up skin resistance kit to the participants😀

I had a chuckle. Maybe my sense of humour bar is much lower than yours. I chuckle at olblueyz too.

I find SY is much funnier, like John Curl, when his claws are out (evinced very recently).

Meant to ask, watchya doing in china?? Now you'll prob say 'I was born here'..but the english flag and china together has me wondering.

No, only been here for just over five years now. Came out to chase a girl and escape the slow strangulation by finance that the Western world is undergoing. I find a lot more flexibility here to just do whatever feels like fun. Back in UK I was earning too much money and had too little time to spend it. So these days, I have a nice balance.

 

[tinitus]

Are you saying that DBT is a perfect "tool", with no flaws or pitfalls whatsoever ?

Regarding cables in the test
What are the parameters for chosing the test cables ?
How will they be different, or alike ?

Just a thought
Might be more interesting to test the same cables both sighted and unsighted

 

[Panicos K]

Actually you are still a little confused....no one cares what you or anyone buys and enjoys (Just don't post bogus claims online).

When you CLAIM online that a cable is better then another cable. Someone uneducated might believe it and waste $$$ on that cable. I care about them and their money. You posted just a CLAIM that becomes a fact for someone else...that is the sad state of audio.

You are also confused on Markus myself and others. We do not only "Claim" with our ears but we do the proper tests, we trying to get measurements. Two things you refuse to do. We go way beyond what you do with your setup and if that makes our opinion superior so be it. We definitely do a lot more then just subjective listening.

You may be surprised to know how many people care to buy a system that they enjoy than one you and others will agree it is "competently designed".
I know very well what you,Markus and others do.Saying I don't it is a bogus claim in itself.I have never claimed that what I hear is a fact anyone must accept.It is enough "fact" to me to take decisions that have to do with my pleasure.Saying any different is a bogus comment in itself.
Good that you care about "victims" and their money.Strange that everyone is deceived but none knowsit but you,Markus etc.....I don't think that anyone asked for your protection from "thieves and charlatans".Allow me also to doubt that even with all the work you and others are doing,it is not certain that in the end you are able to set up a superior sounding system than many "charlatans",especially with a cheap AV receiver and other components.
You say you "not only claim with your ears.......",in fact what you and others mostly say is that your ears decide that something is "good" based almost completely on how it measures(see:cheap AV receiver etc...)
This is exactly the point where consumers who enjoy music have left you ,Markus and others behind,trying to discover what other engineers(charlatans as you call them) have from what it seems discovered before you long ag😵therwise,you have to tell us plainly if your opinion is that manufacturers like audio research,Pass and so many others fall in the same group of "charlatans" who overcharge their products when there are cheap AV receivers that may even be "better".
I wonder who's confused.

 

[Panicos K]

You posted just a CLAIM that becomes a fact for someone else...that is the sad state of audio.

No,this is not the sad state in audio.The sad state in audio is to try to convince someone to get rid of his equipment and buy a cheap AV amp,a CAT5,and other goodies.
I really cannot see any reason why when you and others comment on cables that cost more than CAT5,you imply that they must be baddly designed,or the equipment they are used on must not be "competently designed".Well,I have no doubt that one of my systems with Krell KSA250/Focal Electra 946 and LP & CD sources is very competently designed despite their age.

 

[doug20]

No,this is not the sad state in audio.The sad state in audio is to try to convince someone to get rid of his equipment and buy a cheap AV amp,a CAT5,and other goodies.
I really cannot see any reason why when you and others comment on cables that cost more than CAT5,you imply that they must be baddly designed,or the equipment they are used on must not be "competently designed".Well,I have no doubt that one of my systems with Krell KSA250/Focal Electra 946 and LP & CD sources is very competently designed despite their age.

I have the $5K amp and certain $400 amps (with VCs), Controlled listening and measurement wise stating that the $400 amp is just fine for great SQ and the $5K amp does not offer great SQ in most circumstances ( Im aware of noise floor differences too but at 80dB there is not concerns over that noise floor, just in between tracks).

I never posted anything about "badly designed" either...We apply diminished returns curves to all electronics and past $X there is zero real SQ improvements. All that you purchase is obviously well made, Im sure you setup is awesome (that is never the question here) but the guy with the $2K setup reads a post like yours and thinks "Hey, Cables must improve setups so I have to save for expensive cables"....Do you care about that guy?

 

[doug20]

This is exactly the point where consumers who enjoy music have left you ,Markus and others behind,trying to discover what other engineers(charlatans as you call them) have from what it seems discovered before you long ag😵therwise,you have to tell us plainly if your opinion is that manufacturers like audio research,Pass and so many others fall in the same group of "charlatans" who overcharge their products when there are cheap AV receivers that may even be "better".
I wonder who's confused.

Left us behind???...My own setup is UNMATCHED by anyone I know. I live amongst the 1 million dollar homes (PhDs, Doctors, Dentists, Business Owners). Out of all of them, I have the best setup and I spend the least amount of money. I know other friends that bought BOSE and loved it until they heard my "Low cost" solution. They then realized they were dupped...consumers fail daily at figuring out audio. Many guys on this thread are the reason why!!

1. I have the skills and the time to build my own speakers and the ability to prefect whatever curve I need in room.
2. I have spent time learning about about audio science so I can build the best room and give myself the best acoustics, and learn how to control my listening tests so that I can make the most objective conclusions.

Im still have many, many compromises. Most are seen only in measurements. Some are family decision based but its far superior to many who think spending large dollars makes for a great system.

My current cables are from BJC or monoprice.com depending on the need. Even Monster is a complete rip off. I have spent $$$ on cables even had some high end cable company send me some XO wires they thought was superior then the solid copper from parts express, etc.

I have won over $5K in over 2000 years in blind tests vs rich but dumb audio guys. I spent 5 years rooming with engineers during my university life. We use to go to any audiophiles dorm room, swap the "expensive" stuff with cheap stuff and show everyone that they would not know for days on end UNTIL they saw the cables....go figure.

If everyone wants to be completely honest with this discussion they should simply do the tests or someone else should switch your cables out without you knowing. Its the only way you will ever know the real truth.

Hey if you can still spot the difference then more power to you but I find it amazing that NONE OF YOU even want to try it.

 

[tinitus]

I know other friends that bought BOSE and loved it until they heard my "Low cost" solution. They then realized they were dupped...consumers fail daily at figuring out audio.

wow 😀

Being biased towards cheap solutions is fine... I vote for that, absolutely 🙂 actually I think most of us do 😉

 

[soongsc]

...
If I put two Claude Monet paintings next to each other and told you I modified one, would you be able to tell the difference between the two paintings? Let me know how long it takes you to tell the difference and what methods you used to discover the difference, and best of all exactly what the difference is. 😎


...

Those two files are different.
Just pull up a duplicate file finder and it did not detect them as duplicate. (normally it would even if the name is different.
Can't see the difference immediatly, but suspect just a slight change in color.

 

[doug20]

wow 😀

Being biased towards cheap solutions is fine... I vote for that, absolutely 🙂 actually I think most of us do 😉

I have several choices on my house ...the "cheap solution" is for showing my friends that care little about spending $$ on audio and thought BOSE was the awesome.

My HT room has far more $$$ and time involved but most of those $$$ are in speakers and room design.

 

[soongsc]

wow 😀

Being biased towards cheap solutions is fine... I vote for that, absolutely 🙂 actually I think most of us do 😉

I think it's wise to set a budget limit initially, and start evaluation from the lowest cost equipment seemingly well build. For example, I found a few DVD players with HDCD decoding capability, that sounded much better than CD players costing many times more. I've returned quite a few in the process. Can't really say these are better than ones out of budget, but at least you get something reasonably well.

 

[Panicos K]

I have the $5K amp and certain $400 amps (with VCs), Controlled listening and measurement wise stating that the $400 amp is just fine for great SQ and the $5K amp does not offer great SQ in most circumstances ( Im aware of noise floor differences too but at 80dB there is not concerns over that noise floor, just in between tracks).

I never posted anything about "badly designed" either...We apply diminished returns curves to all electronics and past $X there is zero real SQ improvements. All that you purchase is obviously well made, Im sure you setup is awesome (that is never the question here) but the guy with the $2K setup reads a post like yours and thinks "Hey, Cables must improve setups so I have to save for expensive cables"....Do you care about that guy?

I like this post of your very much and I agree 100%.Really.I only hope it is also read by at least one member here,so that he may realize why I prefer my smaller,less expensive tube amplifier and new speakers than the set-up I mentioned before.
You may had not posted about "badly designed",but others did,so my apologies for this.
And,yes,I care about that and other guys.In fact,I am back in sales after some years of absence.I do sell cables too.My recommendations to friends and customers are limited to only a few cables at very reasonable prices($40-250 mostly),but I have to admit these do not include CAT5 and the likes.If they do not agree with my recommendations and insist on very expensive cables,I sell them if I have them.You know they will buy them from elsewhere if I don't🙂These customers belong to the category that we ALL agree that they will never listen to you,even me as a seller,but take opinions from magazines etc....as their best choice.I feel just fine as I see people who still have the systems I've sold them 10-15 years ago.🙂

 

[Jakob2]

@ terry_j,

John is talking about an A/B-preference test instead of the ABX protocol.

Random allocation of the DUTs to "A" and "B" does the "blinding" part. 🙂

This idea should not sound that unfamiliar. 🙂

Wishes

 

[doug20]

I like this post of your very much and I agree 100%.Really.I only hope it is also read by at least one member here,so that he may realize why I prefer my smaller,less expensive tube amplifier and new speakers than the set-up I mentioned before.
You may had not posted about "badly designed",but others did,so my apologies for this.
And,yes,I care about that and other guys.In fact,I am back in sales after some years of absence.I do sell cables too.My recommendations to friends and customers are limited to only a few cables at very reasonable prices($40-250 mostly),but I have to admit these do not include CAT5 and the likes.If they do not agree with my recommendations and insist on very expensive cables,I sell them if I have them.You know they will buy them from elsewhere if I don't🙂These customers belong to the category that we ALL agree that they will never listen to you,even me as a seller,but take opinions from magazines etc....as their best choice.I feel just fine as I see people who still have the systems I've sold them 10-15 years ago.🙂

Thanks for the reponse. No reason to apolgize, I came to DIYaudio because do I assume all the regulars have some of the best audio setups from around the world. Its nice to learn about the many different choices we normally never read about.

 

[Panicos K]

Left us behind???...My own setup is UNMATCHED by anyone I know. I live amongst the 1 million dollar homes (PhDs, Doctors, Dentists, Business Owners). Out of all of them, I have the best setup and I spend the least amount of money. I know other friends that bought BOSE and loved it until they heard my "Low cost" solution. They then realized they were dupped...consumers fail daily at figuring out audio. Many guys on this thread are the reason why!!

1. I have the skills and the time to build my own speakers and the ability to prefect whatever curve I need in room.
2. I have spent time learning about about audio science so I can build the best room and give myself the best acoustics, and learn how to control my listening tests so that I can make the most objective conclusions.

Im still have many, many compromises. Most are seen only in measurements. Some are family decision based but its far superior to many who think spending large dollars makes for a great system.

My current cables are from BJC or monoprice.com depending on the need. Even Monster is a complete rip off. I have spent $$$ on cables even had some high end cable company send me some XO wires they thought was superior then the solid copper from parts express, etc.

I have won over $5K in over 2000 years in blind tests vs rich but dumb audio guys. I spent 5 years rooming with engineers during my university life. We use to go to any audiophiles dorm room, swap the "expensive" stuff with cheap stuff and show everyone that they would not know for days on end UNTIL they saw the cables....go figure.

If everyone wants to be completely honest with this discussion they should simply do the tests or someone else should switch your cables out without you knowing. Its the only way you will ever know the real truth.

Hey if you can still spot the difference then more power to you but I find it amazing that NONE OF YOU even want to try it.

I wish I knew a very small part of what you do.
If you think that MY comments have lead anyone to start saving for expensive cables,then I guess I have to move there for a while.I have failed to make some money here when I had my shop🙂
If this comment helps,I am listening my CDs with a Marantz CD52MKIISE for the last 15+ years.I have also kept the sony playstation 1 slim(not even the one some like so much)for one of my systems.I too spend more money on my speakers and cartridges.My cables on the main system,cost about 5% of the system's value.All power cables in the new room,are Belden 3x14awg shielded.Happier now?🙂