Joachim, I listened to that particular model of Wavac, without being prejudiced by the review, one year at CES. It produced the best sound of the show, and made a memorable impression on me. Why it measured so badly is beyond me. However, the load was a quality TANNOY horn system and the working level was probably 10mW -100mW.
Huh??
Claims to have done DBT's....with no evidence in sight.
Claims to have "heard" caps in said DBT's....with no evidence in sight.
Claims Dr Shanefield requested SBT's....with no evidence in sight.
Claims a "control" for wire tests are needed....with no evidence in sight.
Claims
Claims
😕😕😕
I trust my eyes (not so good) and my ears. What i wanted to say is that i could not belieave what my eyes were seeing.
Maybe the system Michael was listening to was sounding "magical" but belieave me or not, i do not think that compensation brings progress in the end. I have to do a lot of compromises in praxis but in theory i think that perfectly matched and enginered systems sound more realistic provided the recording and the listening room is good too.
What you may not understand or i may have not told everybody here clearly that i can hear differences but they are sometimes very small. Most of that differences whoud be swapped by controled scientific tests. To hear this differences i nead my own system at home and i have to be alone. I use spontanious reactions and long term listening too. I repeat some experiments dothends of times.
This small differences matter to me and may not matter at all to somebody else.
I see it like spicing meal where a very tiny bit of carlic for example can make the food taste better (if you like carlic). The carlic may be ony 0.01% of the total mass but will still be detectable.
One last thing: a circuit may contain hundrets of parts and tiny differences in component sound can and up to be audible because a lot of components are acting together. I general it is my experience that high feedback systems that are ideally balanced erode tiny differences in component sound and choice much more effective then very simple, non global feedack designs. The zerro feadback guys use those component choices to tune the sound to taste. What is wrong with that ?
Again, i am no fan of screeming horns compensated by mellow sounding zerro feedback tubes but i am flexible and open minded enough. When i here a system that sounds extraordinary good and uses technology that is alien to me i am curiuos to find out if i can learn something or if i overlooked something.
Maybe the system Michael was listening to was sounding "magical" but belieave me or not, i do not think that compensation brings progress in the end. I have to do a lot of compromises in praxis but in theory i think that perfectly matched and enginered systems sound more realistic provided the recording and the listening room is good too.
What you may not understand or i may have not told everybody here clearly that i can hear differences but they are sometimes very small. Most of that differences whoud be swapped by controled scientific tests. To hear this differences i nead my own system at home and i have to be alone. I use spontanious reactions and long term listening too. I repeat some experiments dothends of times.
This small differences matter to me and may not matter at all to somebody else.
I see it like spicing meal where a very tiny bit of carlic for example can make the food taste better (if you like carlic). The carlic may be ony 0.01% of the total mass but will still be detectable.
One last thing: a circuit may contain hundrets of parts and tiny differences in component sound can and up to be audible because a lot of components are acting together. I general it is my experience that high feedback systems that are ideally balanced erode tiny differences in component sound and choice much more effective then very simple, non global feedack designs. The zerro feadback guys use those component choices to tune the sound to taste. What is wrong with that ?
Again, i am no fan of screeming horns compensated by mellow sounding zerro feedback tubes but i am flexible and open minded enough. When i here a system that sounds extraordinary good and uses technology that is alien to me i am curiuos to find out if i can learn something or if i overlooked something.
So how do you know the "differences" aren't imaginary? Your mind playing tricks on you? How do we know?
Do you understand that controlled scientific tests swamp imaginary "differences" very well. Cutting off their sources, like vision and prior knowledge. Could this be the answer?
That no evidence is in sight is just a ..... claim of yours. 🙂
Sometimes you really must look up the definitions, otherwise it´s hard to follow the discussion.
An experimenter has to show that a test is valid, and that can´t be shown without controls.
It is as simple as that.
Otoh if one is not interested in science then he does not need to fulfill scientific requirements.
Wishes
No it wasn't the only one, read again. Congratulations with your sudden hearing abilities, if only we can get you to read and make logical conclusions also.
It was meant as a joke but then I should have known that you wouldn't realise that. 🙄
How do you know this? I mean, do you have any proof? Documentation?
Having done many years of pro audio, I will agree that there are certain demands.
But more demanding than audiophiles? You may be fooling yourself.
There is a lot of awful sounding stuff in the pro monitor world.
Can you back up your claim above?
Ajinfla, what we normally do, with "we" i mean professional audio engineers that work in the so called "High End", is that we tell our findings to others and they try that component out and come back with their own experience so there is an open loop, feedback and feedforward, just as in nature. That narrows down component choices after a while, at least when the experience of the other engineer tends in my direction. It is a language problem and you have to know the other guys for a while because we are all a bit different. On the day where a machine passes the Turing test, i change my mind.
OT: Did you see JBL is closing shop in the US? Mass layoffs, moving prod to China.
I must agree. There is no way i know of that a pair of microphones can discern in which direction a stereo image may be coming from, it could well be 180 degrees opposite (front or back). Yet we instictively know if a sound is coming from left or right & from the front or behind with only a pair of ears 🙂
I'll be honest that i havent worked out how we do it & i'm sure with a pair of microphones you couldn't.
Perhaps someone might know differently 🙂 Sorry for going off subject, however i think this shows that there is more going on than we actually realise...
E2A:- Not only that but we also know when a sound is coming to us from overhead at the front or rear! I'm sure the same would be accorded to sounds produced from below us if we were high up. Humans appear to be able to pick a sound out from a sphere of sound. I'd suggest that'd take at least 8 microphones & some very serious processing 😀
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To anyone who cares.
I'll be removing myself from this thread for the foreseeable future. It has over the these last few months morphed into most everything I hate 😡 about Audio Asylum's Propeller Head Plaza forum!
When I first returned to posting on diyAudio.com after being ill, I noticed that even though there were vast differences in opposing views of the topic, this forum & thread was at least civil and respectful for the most part. So much so that even AJ and I patched up our years long feud. Yes AJ and I still disagree but, at least now it's done in a civil, respectful manner.
This thread has turned from honestly discussing opposing POVs on a topic to just one more subjectivist vs objectivist PI$$INg contest and yes I don't need to be told I also got involved. Now I'm seeing a lot of puerile name-calling of others, the berating of their audio beliefs accompanied with disparaging & mendacious comments about the performance of the audio components they choose to use.
I hate it when it gets like this NOTHING is learned because NOTHING is really being discussed. Now this thread has denigrated into attacks not even of the opposing POVs but, rather of the believers of that opposing POV. It's all being done as a cleverly disguised, desire to reveal the "truth" ---{at least it's the "truth" according to the attackers view of the issue}--- but, in the end a personal attack on another, is NOT anyway to prove their beliefs are wrong! This is known as the Ad Hominem Abusive. I"ll use myself as an example so as to not offend anyone else. "Tom cannot possibly know what live, unamplified music really sounds like because he uses single fullrange speakers!" That's a fallacious argument and it's a personal attack on Tom and his abilities, period. Others can justify such behaviors if they wish to but, I'll no longer take part of this time of "supposed" debate about the audibility of wires.
Now for those who'll attempt to proclaim this is my way of backing out of doing a DBT with wires in my home. All I can say is SY NOTHING has changed between us. We'll do this DBT. You have my private email address so that we can continue communications and get everything arranged. It's too bad happened but, the reality is I saw it coming and I know I'm much happier when not involved in discussions/arguments/debates once they've sunk to this level. Once again I don't have to be told I played a part, I know I did but, I don't have to continue doing so and I won't!
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
I'll be removing myself from this thread for the foreseeable future. It has over the these last few months morphed into most everything I hate 😡 about Audio Asylum's Propeller Head Plaza forum!
When I first returned to posting on diyAudio.com after being ill, I noticed that even though there were vast differences in opposing views of the topic, this forum & thread was at least civil and respectful for the most part. So much so that even AJ and I patched up our years long feud. Yes AJ and I still disagree but, at least now it's done in a civil, respectful manner.
This thread has turned from honestly discussing opposing POVs on a topic to just one more subjectivist vs objectivist PI$$INg contest and yes I don't need to be told I also got involved. Now I'm seeing a lot of puerile name-calling of others, the berating of their audio beliefs accompanied with disparaging & mendacious comments about the performance of the audio components they choose to use.
I hate it when it gets like this NOTHING is learned because NOTHING is really being discussed. Now this thread has denigrated into attacks not even of the opposing POVs but, rather of the believers of that opposing POV. It's all being done as a cleverly disguised, desire to reveal the "truth" ---{at least it's the "truth" according to the attackers view of the issue}--- but, in the end a personal attack on another, is NOT anyway to prove their beliefs are wrong! This is known as the Ad Hominem Abusive. I"ll use myself as an example so as to not offend anyone else. "Tom cannot possibly know what live, unamplified music really sounds like because he uses single fullrange speakers!" That's a fallacious argument and it's a personal attack on Tom and his abilities, period. Others can justify such behaviors if they wish to but, I'll no longer take part of this time of "supposed" debate about the audibility of wires.
Now for those who'll attempt to proclaim this is my way of backing out of doing a DBT with wires in my home. All I can say is SY NOTHING has changed between us. We'll do this DBT. You have my private email address so that we can continue communications and get everything arranged. It's too bad happened but, the reality is I saw it coming and I know I'm much happier when not involved in discussions/arguments/debates once they've sunk to this level. Once again I don't have to be told I played a part, I know I did but, I don't have to continue doing so and I won't!
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
terry j;2084700 'the ear is the most exquisite measuring device in the known universe'-my personal favorite:D:D) [/QUOTE said:
Hi Pano, hopefully the above clears up any misunderstanding.
Well, I referred specifically to Genelec, not "Pro Audio".
Really? You think if Genelecs amplified speakers had the previously posted performance data and their clients were told that: "But they sound great, especially since we added the Black Gate caps and Cardas internal wiring, while raising the price to a modest $75k per speaker. Just read the subjective reviews in the magazines by guys whose pockets we stuffed full of cash and wouldn't know a violin from a Stratocaster."
How long do you suspect Genelec would stay in their current business under that model?
Pano, could you be specific, which Genelec model(s?) meets your awful sound criteria? TIA
huh? the ear can only hear, (appreciate music), good or bad, one can not listen to a speaker and say that 2 watts is being dished out, nor can it measure phase....
one can not listen to music and say that the drummer is x meters away from the wall....😀😀😀
Actually Joachim, I would define that as a closed loop system, a cocoon from reality, where anecdote and facts are indistinguishable. All faith based communities works that way. Suggestion is a very powerful thing.
Narrows down? As this thread demonstrates, reality contradicts your statement. There is utter disarray and division amongst audiophiles at to what is what. "Good" wires "Cheap" wires, silver, copper, insulation, dielectric, etc, etc, etc.
Audiophiles can't agree on one single one of those...or anything else.
😕
Tom we do disagree, but I (and I'm sure others) do enjoy your input here. I really wish you would reconsider. It would be a shame if the only guy with the stones and the confidence in his belief, decided to drop out from the thread. Whereas so many others have no problem "talking the talk", you are the only one willing to "Walk the walk".
Tom, who cares what others think...as you sit there in front of your system?
Your fullranges have one person to please, IMO.
Don't worry about this thread. It's just online banter. Take your time, get some practice in and let us know what happens down the road.
cheers,
AJ
I wish others shared that kind of wisdom.
Not judging by the first 12,000 odd posts I've read. Some are actually taking this rather seriously. Why? Hmm...that's a good question. Why are you guys taking this so seriously?
Do you know how much music you are missing by sitting at your keyboards typing this dribble?
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