I don't think it was a request.I said I agree with Andre's findings on similar combinations as I have been using myself in many cases.
Now as to your comments that you were expecting not to hear any difference,I have no problem and I guess neither you.I can hear differences everytime I have to do such biwiring.Sometimes it was a 12/16awg combinations,some others 12/14,or even the same for both bf and lf speaker inputs.I believe the cable thickness difference must have something to do with x-over frequency too.My present speakers and a pair of speakers I have now on loan,work well with the same cables in both inputs.Next week I will try some other combinations too out of curiosity.If there is anything I have learned all these years,is that in audio I have and can accept no rules.🙂
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The thread ended at 10k. So this must be some kind of alternate reality. Strange ...
I can hear cable differences quite clearly now if I just make the effort to look before I listen.
I can hear cable differences quite clearly now if I just make the effort to look before I listen.
SY,
PERFECT! The DBT is on! I'll be expecting to hear from you sometime in the spring!
AJinFLA said:
AJ,
I know it's not for everyone but, my system is about as simple as one could ask for. Source + Power cord > Interconnect > Integrated Amp + Power cord > Speaker wire > Binding post > Internal wire > Speaker.
I have to keep pinching myself to be sure I'm not dreaming. What bizzaro world did I just wake up in where you and I are conversing amicably about audio?
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
We try to set a civilized tone here.
I'll be in touch with you several times before I come out. We'll need to arrange how the electronics will be hidden from view, and get set on switching details. Good tests take a lot of planning.
I'll be in touch with you several times before I come out. We'll need to arrange how the electronics will be hidden from view, and get set on switching details. Good tests take a lot of planning.
fantastico.
TG, as long as we can assume the test itself will be run properly (I accept that with SY on the case) then what is prob most important is that you really get used to the dbt conditions. That is where your friends/family etc can really help.
I can well imagine that this could be taken the wrong way, but all bases need to be covered, eg cheating etc.(so don't take it personally ok?)
We can't afford to have someone at a later date come up with objections. (as for example RDF just did with the coathanger...btw it is not that hard to solder coat hangers!. And just to clarify, I am not saying his objections don't have merit, it's just that the procedure has to so well documented that those type of objections cannot arise)
So, if SY changes the cables and leaves the room, and you enter, then we cannot have any accusations of you peeking whilst alone in the room. (for example)
So I can see the need for some sort of control for that, a third person or whatever.
This result will NOT change anyones mind!! but let's hope at least that there are no obvious holes in how it is done.
That way we can be sure that under those conditions the results (whatever they are) stand.
Correct AJ, sometimes the loudest volume is merely an attempt to hide the least substance. Andy G's absence has been noted by many.
Whilst I agree with SW about poor old curly, one thing we have to admit is that the thread took a turn for the better when curly and doomlord (was it?) quietly left. A pity it had to come to that. Because I did like doomlords contributions.
Maybe curly lives close enough that he could be part of the proceedings? There's a thought.
EDIT re the coathanger link, we cannot draw ANY conclusions about how the test was run from that comment about it. I presumed it was the 'thread' itself. Not even close to being the thread, just a comment on it.
So I say the results stand! hahaha
TG, as long as we can assume the test itself will be run properly (I accept that with SY on the case) then what is prob most important is that you really get used to the dbt conditions. That is where your friends/family etc can really help.
I can well imagine that this could be taken the wrong way, but all bases need to be covered, eg cheating etc.(so don't take it personally ok?)
We can't afford to have someone at a later date come up with objections. (as for example RDF just did with the coathanger...btw it is not that hard to solder coat hangers!. And just to clarify, I am not saying his objections don't have merit, it's just that the procedure has to so well documented that those type of objections cannot arise)
So, if SY changes the cables and leaves the room, and you enter, then we cannot have any accusations of you peeking whilst alone in the room. (for example)
So I can see the need for some sort of control for that, a third person or whatever.
This result will NOT change anyones mind!! but let's hope at least that there are no obvious holes in how it is done.
That way we can be sure that under those conditions the results (whatever they are) stand.
Correct AJ, sometimes the loudest volume is merely an attempt to hide the least substance. Andy G's absence has been noted by many.
Whilst I agree with SW about poor old curly, one thing we have to admit is that the thread took a turn for the better when curly and doomlord (was it?) quietly left. A pity it had to come to that. Because I did like doomlords contributions.
Maybe curly lives close enough that he could be part of the proceedings? There's a thought.
EDIT re the coathanger link, we cannot draw ANY conclusions about how the test was run from that comment about it. I presumed it was the 'thread' itself. Not even close to being the thread, just a comment on it.
So I say the results stand! hahaha
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If you consider the difference in RLC to those of the XO components, I can't see how it will influence XO frequency. Maybe the audibility is influenced by the group-delay of the rest of the system?
To me 12AWG is a good compromise for full range music, bi-wiring allows for using say 10AWG on LF and 16AWG on HF. I prefer to use the same cables, except for diameter, on both runs.
Hi Andre,what I mean is that the higher the x-over frequency,the thinner the HF wire can be,but at the same time the LF cable must be able to handle accordingly the lows and mids.Depending on the speaker I have over the years used similar combinations as you suggest.At present,I too use same awg for both speaker inputs.I also agree on same geometry of both cables,regardless of size.
Hello Terry!
Don't worry I wasn't offended by anything you said. In fact, I've been thinking about the problem of cheating as well. Afterall cheating could happen on either side i.e., I "could" try to peek while wires are being changed or I could try listening to determine if the IC has been changed or not! SY "could" simply change the IC when it shouldn't be changed or not change the IC when it should be changed!
My solution is just a tad more complex than the thrid man you suggested. What we need are two more people. One who's a proponent of wires sounding different and one who's a proponent of wires not sounding different!
The person who's proponent of wires sounding different would remain with SY at all times to monitor:
1) The 12 times the coin is tossed.
2) The recording of what those coins tosses are onto paper.
3) The adherence of wire changes i.e., following precisely the changes as they've previously been recorded on paper.
That way we'll have person monitoring the test adminstrator at all times who wouldn't want him to cheat in anyway and would immediately report if he attempted to do so!
The person who's a proponent of wires not sounding different would remain with me at all times to monitor I cannot see or hear:
1) The 12 times the coin is tossed.
2) The recording of those coins tosses onto paper.
3) The changing of wires following what's been recorded on paper.
4) The wires that are in the system during that listening sesion.
That way we'll have person monitoring the me at all times who wouldn't want me to cheat in anyway and would immediately report if I attempted to do so!
=========================================================
I'd also propose that the persons monitoring SY and myself, be as unobtrusive as possible. There would be no talking when SY was doing the coin tossing, recoding those tosses on paper or doing wire changes. There would also be no talking with me as I entered the room and prepared myself for a listening session.
Thus these others would watch and not speak to SY or myself, unless they were first addressed by us and hence knew we wanted to talk. Even then no one would not be allowed to discuss DBTs in general or this test specifically until the test was completed and scored. Of course all of SY's protocols would be followed as stringently as possible.
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
TG, don't jump too far ahead. Let me get the protocols set. There's much more effective ways of doing things than you're proposing- from the test subject standpoint, it's all transparent, you just need to listen and score.
I'd consider myself more of a cable agnostic than a disbeliever lol. PM me if you guys need an extra set of hands. Almost positive I can secure a vehicle for the drive. Just need to know the date ahead of time so I can schedule work around it etc...
No doubt you remember the following message.
I have a confession to make:
What started out as a joke turned into such a promising post as so many of you bit. I thought I was in heaven. No more having to deal with this baby. Alas, I was wrong.
As hard as I tried:
- I couldn't get the thread to self destruct.
- I wasn't able to tap into your minds.
- The ghost of cables past was busy on another forum.
Santa has come and gone and it looks like he saw who was naughty and nice and took appropriate action. I asked the other mods what we should do. Most suggested that we keep this thread open and allow you to flex your cable muscles. While the reason may escape me, this is a democracy and your wish has been granted.
I hope everyone had a good Christmas and are looking forward to the new year.
* Disclaimer: This thread may cause undue frustration, hair loss, cold feet, insomnia, decreased sperm count, lethargy, suicidal tendencies, skin rash, ingrown toenails, delirium trauma, nose bleeds, genital warts, projectile vomiting, loss of bladder and bowel control, vitamin D deficiency and general nausea. Please consult with your doctor before posting.
OFFICIAL WARNING
This thread will self destruct at the 10,000 post mark. At this rate you have until about Friday. After this thread is closed anyone who starts or even thinks about starting another thread on cables will hear a knock at their door. Be afraid. Be very afraid. It's the ghost of cables past.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
Now step away from the keyboard, grab a soldering iron and go do something, anything, maybe even listen to some music. This thread has turned some of you from nice boys into naughty ones. And you know what happens to naughty boys at this time of year.
is coming in 16 days and he's checking twice.
I have a confession to make:
What started out as a joke turned into such a promising post as so many of you bit. I thought I was in heaven. No more having to deal with this baby. Alas, I was wrong.
As hard as I tried:
- I couldn't get the thread to self destruct.
- I wasn't able to tap into your minds.
- The ghost of cables past was busy on another forum.
Santa has come and gone and it looks like he saw who was naughty and nice and took appropriate action. I asked the other mods what we should do. Most suggested that we keep this thread open and allow you to flex your cable muscles. While the reason may escape me, this is a democracy and your wish has been granted.
I hope everyone had a good Christmas and are looking forward to the new year.
* Disclaimer: This thread may cause undue frustration, hair loss, cold feet, insomnia, decreased sperm count, lethargy, suicidal tendencies, skin rash, ingrown toenails, delirium trauma, nose bleeds, genital warts, projectile vomiting, loss of bladder and bowel control, vitamin D deficiency and general nausea. Please consult with your doctor before posting.
I have done some blind testing, but not blind enough to qualify as acceptable. I have also had the pleasure of clearly hearing a difference when nothing was changed, but I thought it had, so I know that can be a factor. I have had friends in the hi end audio business for over 35 years, and have listened to almost every easily moved hi end product made since then, in my own system. I never once felt the desire to purchase any commercial cable, even though I could buy them at or below dealer cost. I always made my own when I needed some. Still, I seem to hear differences, bit I don't necessarily prefer one over the other most of the time. It must be the low rez system I own.
I am very much open to participating in proper blind testing. I really don't care what the results (for me) are.
Sorry Panicos, now I understand what you meant by that.
Seems like we suffer from the same delusion. 🙂
An open-minded attitude is always a good thing. I approach it the other way- I don't think there are any non-mundane differences, but if someone demonstrates that they can hear a difference, that would be fascinating to me.
A good reason besides democracy is this thread serves to inform those who are new to the joys of audio reproduction that there is a real controversy about the sound of cables.
When you are new to something you lack information, at least this thread serves to alert a newcomer that it is not a given that you need to use expensive cables or even worry about them unduly.
And you can even make your own!
Cheers.
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