admit it, cables are female. (At least from my point of view,hehe)
hype, high price, a good mood, cabernet etc. is viagra. It can help...
hype, high price, a good mood, cabernet etc. is viagra. It can help...
Konnichiwa,
Thank you. I find it frustrating when seperate issues are mixed up.
Indeed. I have made similar remarks on the neccesity of such skills and their development in the introduction to my Article:
"The Freakzoid Tweekaloid Strikes Again", which I recommend to those who wish to know how and exactly where I stand on Tweaks, cables etc....
I ahve only come across 100's. I no longer "fix" gear, except when I do (foolish consistency is the hopgobblin of small minds - Emmmerson) but I used to. My experiences mirror yours. Most gear is just Ho-Hum and cost, marketing and reputation have little to do with it. But from that I would not conclude that "most gear sounds the same".
In fact all the "Ho-Hum" stuff sounds "Ho-Hum" in different ways, it just faisl to grab my attention enough to analyse the "how" of the "Ho-Hum". Be it in reviews or for my own use, life is too short for boring sounding HiFi, so I threw such back in with the rest....
;-)
Very true.
Sayonara
PS, all my cables are male, as they have some protusion that penetrates into some depression, except my XLR cables which are obviously bi-sexual....
mrfeedback said:
Thank you. I find it frustrating when seperate issues are mixed up.
mrfeedback said:
Indeed. I have made similar remarks on the neccesity of such skills and their development in the introduction to my Article:
"The Freakzoid Tweekaloid Strikes Again", which I recommend to those who wish to know how and exactly where I stand on Tweaks, cables etc....
mrfeedback said:
I ahve only come across 100's. I no longer "fix" gear, except when I do (foolish consistency is the hopgobblin of small minds - Emmmerson) but I used to. My experiences mirror yours. Most gear is just Ho-Hum and cost, marketing and reputation have little to do with it. But from that I would not conclude that "most gear sounds the same".
In fact all the "Ho-Hum" stuff sounds "Ho-Hum" in different ways, it just faisl to grab my attention enough to analyse the "how" of the "Ho-Hum". Be it in reviews or for my own use, life is too short for boring sounding HiFi, so I threw such back in with the rest....
;-)
mrfeedback said:
Very true.
Sayonara
PS, all my cables are male, as they have some protusion that penetrates into some depression, except my XLR cables which are obviously bi-sexual....
Believer: I changed my old speaker cable to Brand ABX, and the sound now is just fantastic.
Atheist: Rubbish - I bet you didn't even do a double-blind test.
B: Even my tortoise can tell the difference. My friends tell me I'm a changed personality since discovering Brand ABX.
A: You must be making it all up. Brand ABX's sales literature is full of claims which respected physicists can categorically disprove.
B. You must be deaf if you can't hear...
(cont p94).
Spotted the flaw in this yet? Most of the time this argument comes up, we never get to find out what the old speaker cable was.
Is anybody claiming that silver, or solid core, or multicore, or anything, somehow cleans up the signal passing through it, and extracts details that weren't there before? I don't think so - the only mechanism at work here is therefore that the old cable behaved poorly in some way which the new one doesn't.
Examining what was happening in the old cable is crucial, but we almost never do it! An obvious illustration is that the old cable may just be worn out - its connections may be faulty or corroded; its strands may have become broken through flexing. If this is never established there's really no point having the argument.
Believer: I replaced 30m of 10-year old bell-wire with something decent, and the sound now is just fantastic.
Atheist: Yes, I can appreciate how that might be. Fancy a glass of wine?
Cheers
IH
Atheist: Rubbish - I bet you didn't even do a double-blind test.
B: Even my tortoise can tell the difference. My friends tell me I'm a changed personality since discovering Brand ABX.
A: You must be making it all up. Brand ABX's sales literature is full of claims which respected physicists can categorically disprove.
B. You must be deaf if you can't hear...
(cont p94).
Spotted the flaw in this yet? Most of the time this argument comes up, we never get to find out what the old speaker cable was.
Is anybody claiming that silver, or solid core, or multicore, or anything, somehow cleans up the signal passing through it, and extracts details that weren't there before? I don't think so - the only mechanism at work here is therefore that the old cable behaved poorly in some way which the new one doesn't.
Examining what was happening in the old cable is crucial, but we almost never do it! An obvious illustration is that the old cable may just be worn out - its connections may be faulty or corroded; its strands may have become broken through flexing. If this is never established there's really no point having the argument.
Believer: I replaced 30m of 10-year old bell-wire with something decent, and the sound now is just fantastic.
Atheist: Yes, I can appreciate how that might be. Fancy a glass of wine?
Cheers
IH
One of two possibilities, anyway. The connection stuff you mention is often responsible for "improvements" among nonaudiophiles that I know. For people who aren't geeking around and attaching/reattaching cables on a regular basis, connections loosen, slip, and oxidize. Wire in transparent insulation goes green. One cannot overemphasize the importance of solid connections and clean wire!
The other possibility is, of course, our human nature.
Konnichiwa,
Yes. And the sceptics actually write articles within which they do detail what was replaced, what was observed and venture POSSIBLE explanations as to what MAY be happening and mnay or may not have done blind, double blind or even double deaf tests and no-one takes note....
Sayonara
IanHarvey said:
Yes. And the sceptics actually write articles within which they do detail what was replaced, what was observed and venture POSSIBLE explanations as to what MAY be happening and mnay or may not have done blind, double blind or even double deaf tests and no-one takes note....
Sayonara
SY said:
Only transparent isolation? It is my experience that bare copper in black and other coloured isolation oxidises as well, only you don’t see it 😉 And who has figured out that oxidised copper sounds worse? For the same “reason” it sounds good. Mind you, within a while there comes a cable maker claiming their “Green oxidised” cables sounds the best of all. BTW all copper oxidises immediately at its surface, it is the nature of copper.
😉
Copper and oxidation
Yes, copper can oxidize in other colors, too, but it does so most readily and rapidly with clear insulation. An increase in the normal impedance rise with increasing frequency is seen, which can be significant if you've got a speaker with a falling HF impedance.
Yes, copper can oxidize in other colors, too, but it does so most readily and rapidly with clear insulation. An increase in the normal impedance rise with increasing frequency is seen, which can be significant if you've got a speaker with a falling HF impedance.
PASS THE DUTCHY...
Hi,
Yeah...and there's life on mars too.
And, naturally, copperoxide is a good conductor, or...is it?
I think the main reason for transparent insulation to be one of the worst is that it reacts to U.V. radiation faster.
If you want to avoid it use enamelled or kapton coated wire.
And if you're double lucky you may find some companies that coat their wires as they're drawn and cryoed.
The only things that's likely to degrade over time with these wires are the contacts...
Which is something worthy of a thread all by its' own, provided it hasn't been discussed here already.
Molto mayonara and french fries,😉
Hi,
Yeah...and there's life on mars too.
And, naturally, copperoxide is a good conductor, or...is it?
I think the main reason for transparent insulation to be one of the worst is that it reacts to U.V. radiation faster.
If you want to avoid it use enamelled or kapton coated wire.
And if you're double lucky you may find some companies that coat their wires as they're drawn and cryoed.
The only things that's likely to degrade over time with these wires are the contacts...
Which is something worthy of a thread all by its' own, provided it hasn't been discussed here already.
Molto mayonara and french fries,😉
Re: Copper and oxidation
Konnichiwa,
That is chemically pure horse droppings (bing polite).
The copper oxidises further (despite being sealed from athmosphere borne oxigen) because of the outgassings from the PVC insulation. As long as your insulation is PVC your surface will oxidise, no matter what the colour of insulation. Of course, clear insulation will make you SEE the problem, unlike opaque one....
Next thing we know the colour with wich you paint the edges of your CD changes oxidisation in the Alumium layer (AKA CD-ROT) too. Boy - please try at least to pick up some basic philosophy (as in Philae Sophia) starting with basic chemistry/alchymia and physicks/metaphysics.
That is a first order effect evaluation using steady state, single frequency signals with (due to the methodes) huge amounts of averaging applied. In fact, the very point that this can actually be observed using conventional, readily used AUDIO measurements should put the fear of the unknown into any orthodox audio engineer....
Anyway, ahat does that tell us about the effects on using a pseudo randon, noise type signal (which MAY be music but which may non-musically artificially generated, such as military radio traffic)?
Absolutelyf....king ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO, NADA, NULL, Freak Yourself....
So, got any topically relevant contributions, defensible using the emirical scientific method, if shaving closely with the Razor proposed by William of Occam?
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
SY said:
That is chemically pure horse droppings (bing polite).
The copper oxidises further (despite being sealed from athmosphere borne oxigen) because of the outgassings from the PVC insulation. As long as your insulation is PVC your surface will oxidise, no matter what the colour of insulation. Of course, clear insulation will make you SEE the problem, unlike opaque one....
Next thing we know the colour with wich you paint the edges of your CD changes oxidisation in the Alumium layer (AKA CD-ROT) too. Boy - please try at least to pick up some basic philosophy (as in Philae Sophia) starting with basic chemistry/alchymia and physicks/metaphysics.
SY said:
That is a first order effect evaluation using steady state, single frequency signals with (due to the methodes) huge amounts of averaging applied. In fact, the very point that this can actually be observed using conventional, readily used AUDIO measurements should put the fear of the unknown into any orthodox audio engineer....
Anyway, ahat does that tell us about the effects on using a pseudo randon, noise type signal (which MAY be music but which may non-musically artificially generated, such as military radio traffic)?
Absolutelyf....king ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO, NADA, NULL, Freak Yourself....
So, got any topically relevant contributions, defensible using the emirical scientific method, if shaving closely with the Razor proposed by William of Occam?
Sayonara
Not a stoned philosopher, but I do know a wee amount about plasticizers in vinyl. I'm not interested in getting into crank arguments.
Konnichiwa,
Me iz. Both stoned (I hope) and one who does Philae Sophia (but don't tell my fiancee).
SY said:
Me iz. Both stoned (I hope) and one who does Philae Sophia (but don't tell my fiancee).
SY said:
The chemistry doesn't care if it's mains or speakers- or, for that matter, lying on the shelf. Yes, opaque colored cables (untinned) do tarnish, but at a much slower rate than transparent. Anyone with some lamp cord in clear and opaque insulation of similar age that's been lying about the garage can confirm this.
Plasticizers, nucleators, and those funny additives that prevent insulation discoloration during the extrusion process make clear vinyl formulations a more complex brew than the opaque stuff.
Plasticizers, nucleators, and those funny additives that prevent insulation discoloration during the extrusion process make clear vinyl formulations a more complex brew than the opaque stuff.
My recommendation for the highest quality speaker wire would...... of course..... be none other than daisy-chained Sega Genesis controllers. I find that the 'C' button provides just the right amount of resistance to nullify any problems caused by sunspots. And make sure you suspend the cables from little poles every 3 feet or so, so they don't have to go up too far to get to the speaker connection, that way the electrons won't have to go uphill. And as we all know, electrons going uphill is one of the major causes of muddy midbass.
If the highs seem a bit harsh, you can spray about half a can of that green Edge shaving gel on the binding posts (you should probably put down a paper towel to catch the drips), this prevents any possibility of overload from the flux capacitor (we all know what a new flux capacitor runs these days).
Finally, to really get the most from your music, you want to avoid any reflections from your body. There are two ways to prevent this:
a: before a litening session, wrap yourself in Dacron or, better yet, Acousta-Stuf.
b: (this is my preferred method) Suspend yourself from the ceiling using 12 pound test fishing line (anything heavier causes a crazy amount of reflections) so that you are parallel with the floor in a lying-down position, facing the speakers. Be ready because the fishing line will break periodically and you'll need to catch yourself.
Oh, and one other thing, if you are concerned that your equipment is rated at only 500dB stereo separation, and you want to increase that, simply build a wall down the center of your living room, with one speaker on each side. Then start the music and press your nose to the edge of the wall. (You could use headphones to get this same effect, but who has time for that?)
I just thought I would mention these helpful tips to those of you with the nice cables, CD demagnetizers, and those 600$ speaker wire burn-in machines.
If the highs seem a bit harsh, you can spray about half a can of that green Edge shaving gel on the binding posts (you should probably put down a paper towel to catch the drips), this prevents any possibility of overload from the flux capacitor (we all know what a new flux capacitor runs these days).
Finally, to really get the most from your music, you want to avoid any reflections from your body. There are two ways to prevent this:
a: before a litening session, wrap yourself in Dacron or, better yet, Acousta-Stuf.
b: (this is my preferred method) Suspend yourself from the ceiling using 12 pound test fishing line (anything heavier causes a crazy amount of reflections) so that you are parallel with the floor in a lying-down position, facing the speakers. Be ready because the fishing line will break periodically and you'll need to catch yourself.
Oh, and one other thing, if you are concerned that your equipment is rated at only 500dB stereo separation, and you want to increase that, simply build a wall down the center of your living room, with one speaker on each side. Then start the music and press your nose to the edge of the wall. (You could use headphones to get this same effect, but who has time for that?)
I just thought I would mention these helpful tips to those of you with the nice cables, CD demagnetizers, and those 600$ speaker wire burn-in machines.
Paulinator,
I wish you would stop pushing these flux capacitors. We all know this is a plot from the Far East to migitate the excess capacity in, err, capacity. The story that they are required to transpose the radiative induction of the connector-cable junction is without any scientific basis. Moreover, BDT has failed to prove any audible differences between installations with or without flux capacitance. Lets keep this serious, OK?
Jan Didden
I wish you would stop pushing these flux capacitors. We all know this is a plot from the Far East to migitate the excess capacity in, err, capacity. The story that they are required to transpose the radiative induction of the connector-cable junction is without any scientific basis. Moreover, BDT has failed to prove any audible differences between installations with or without flux capacitance. Lets keep this serious, OK?
Jan Didden
When the connection points of the speaker cable starts being oxidized, the sound might come like an "antique" feeling.
JH
JH
You know, this is a very civilized thread.....
Fact is, the very controversial nature of this topic merely highlights the moral outrage people feel when they are 'forced' to shell out megabucks for 'recommended' cables and interconnects. They eventually buy because the heresay subjectives and the inevitable fad and fashion of audio (like all technologies, even weapons manufacture) is a powerful tide to resist, and most of the population are followers, not leaders.
The truth is many, many people with deep pockets really need others, particularly reviewers, to assure them that the product is good before they buy. The reviewers, bless them, are ever mindful of the advertizing dollar - and this economic observation takes us full circle to the manufacturer and his perception of customer need. Question: whom do we blame for this?
I say (and with some circumspection!) the consumer.......
That said, I like to pursue a middle course, and use wire which I test and listen to carefully which normally costs very little. And I can't say what!
Cheers,
Hugh
Fact is, the very controversial nature of this topic merely highlights the moral outrage people feel when they are 'forced' to shell out megabucks for 'recommended' cables and interconnects. They eventually buy because the heresay subjectives and the inevitable fad and fashion of audio (like all technologies, even weapons manufacture) is a powerful tide to resist, and most of the population are followers, not leaders.
The truth is many, many people with deep pockets really need others, particularly reviewers, to assure them that the product is good before they buy. The reviewers, bless them, are ever mindful of the advertizing dollar - and this economic observation takes us full circle to the manufacturer and his perception of customer need. Question: whom do we blame for this?
I say (and with some circumspection!) the consumer.......
That said, I like to pursue a middle course, and use wire which I test and listen to carefully which normally costs very little. And I can't say what!
Cheers,
Hugh
Paulinator, I would beg to differ, X-Box all the way. Daisy chain dozens of them or you're just listening to sludge. The more X-Box controllers, the better (for my stock portfolio).
Linearity
Fortunately, that's a question mathematicians have pondered for many years.
It turns out that any linear and time-invariant transformation on a signal can be represented exactly by, in effect, measurement of the frequency and phase response of the system.
Time-invariant simply means that the transformation applied to the signal is independent of the time at which it arrived. Linear, in this context, means that the result of the transformation applied to the sum of two signals is the same as the sum of the transformation applied to the signals individually.
This is significant because the effect of (ideal) inductors, capacitors, resistors, and all sorts of other electromagnetic and mechanical systems are time-invariant and linear. Combining any set of these effects results in a transformation which itself is still linear (& time-invariant).
In other words, if a signal is changed in a way which isn't shown up in the frequency/phase response, any mathematical modelling of it must contain some non-linearity or non-time-invariance. In turn, this means that claims of "unmeasurable" signal degradations really need some explanation of where the non-linearity (or non-time-invariance) comes from.
Cheers
IH
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Fortunately, that's a question mathematicians have pondered for many years.
It turns out that any linear and time-invariant transformation on a signal can be represented exactly by, in effect, measurement of the frequency and phase response of the system.
Time-invariant simply means that the transformation applied to the signal is independent of the time at which it arrived. Linear, in this context, means that the result of the transformation applied to the sum of two signals is the same as the sum of the transformation applied to the signals individually.
This is significant because the effect of (ideal) inductors, capacitors, resistors, and all sorts of other electromagnetic and mechanical systems are time-invariant and linear. Combining any set of these effects results in a transformation which itself is still linear (& time-invariant).
In other words, if a signal is changed in a way which isn't shown up in the frequency/phase response, any mathematical modelling of it must contain some non-linearity or non-time-invariance. In turn, this means that claims of "unmeasurable" signal degradations really need some explanation of where the non-linearity (or non-time-invariance) comes from.
Cheers
IH
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