I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

[john curl]

What box, Brian? I lost the reference.

 

[jan.didden]

It is always amazing to me that the letters JC are my fundamental attribute. It is true that it was put on the original JC-1 and JC-2 by agreement with Mark Levinson. However, many here attribute magic to its use as a sales gimmick rather than anything under hood, so to speak. Maybe, those who believe this, should stick to mid fi.

Sorry John, didn't want to belittle your achievements.

jd

 

[jan.didden]

Charles Hansen can, in an extended listening bind test.

John is this documented somewhere?

jd

 

[jan.didden]

Jan,

Here we disagree. Just about everyone can measure the RLC differences. I have pointed out a method that may actually measure the non-ohmic or other audio interconnect properties. By that same test I get results that show switches are not as good as the cables for passing signal. If one could design a switch that measures much better than the cables then that would be a valid test method. But assuming the switch is neutral is probably not a good assumption. In not yet public work I have been looking at switches, there is a long way to go before I have any indication as to how to improve or even rate current methods of switching low level audio signals.

Of course the actual issue is can people hear those RLC or distortion differences? Yes, randomly blaming switches without specifics is silly. Silly may be about as good as bits of this thread get. On these I think we agree.

Ed,

You're right, switches need to be very carefully selected etc.
What I was protesting was the offhand and unfounded statements and all of a sudden the suggestion that people ON PURPOSE use 'bad switches' to hide cable differences and fudge the tests. Totally unwarranted.

jd

 

[randybes]

When it comes to the Spiegel box, I evaluated both personally, with Dick Marsh, and with 2 separate audio reviewers. It surprised me, at first, how 'opaque' it was. I could not measure much, a little xtalk, etc. Much like most here would accept gladly.

How much would it cost for you to design a box to your standards? Have you done so?

 

[vuki]

Ed,

You're right, switches need to be very carefully selected etc.
What I was protesting was the offhand and unfounded statements and all of a sudden the suggestion that people ON PURPOSE use 'bad switches' to hide cable differences and fudge the tests. Totally unwarranted.

jd

This is why I mentioned wireworld's comparator; it didn't use relays but carefully designed switch which allowed tester to choose between A,B and bypass. It was designed by cable manufacturer to prove that there were audible differences in DBT. I don't know if it had been successful anywhere beside wireworld demos 😉
I can only say that no one in the magazine could hear any difference between cables using it for the test and it was pretty fast put on the shelf.
I also haven't found any other report of successful use of it although some german and US magazines got a hold of it too.

 

[Andre Visser]

This is why I mentioned wireworld's comparator; it didn't use relays but carefully designed switch which allowed tester to choose between A,B and bypass.

What cables is used to and from the switchbox, the same as the test cable?

 

[rdf]

What I was protesting was the offhand and unfounded statements and all of a sudden the suggestion that people ON PURPOSE use 'bad switches' to hide cable differences and fudge the tests. Totally unwarranted.

Depends on whether it's 'consciously on purpose'. If it's possible for 'believers' to set up a test that produces false positives why isn't the same true of the inverse? Cable manufacturers claim that their specific blends of geometry, materials and processing techniques are audible. Agreement isn't required to see that a test protocol that adds extraneous materials, geometries and process directly in series with the DUT - and most pictures of ABX boxes I've seen demonstrate nasty build techniques and the cheapest hook-up wire - is suspect. That's straight forward logic.

 

[vuki]

What cables is used to and from the switchbox, the same as the test cable?

The box is made so that it can be connected to the devices without cables; there are short copper (probably OFC) jumpers with OFC RCAs supplied. If you put the devices back to back you can connect the box inbetween with thode jumpers (ca. 5cm long). That is how we did it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[SY]

Depends on whether it's 'consciously on purpose'. If it's possible for 'believers' to set up a test that produces false positives why isn't the same true of the inverse? Cable manufacturers claim that their specific blends of geometry, materials and processing techniques are audible. Agreement isn't required to see that a test protocol that adds extraneous materials, geometries and process directly in series with the DUT - and most pictures of ABX boxes I've seen demonstrate nasty build techniques and the cheapest hook-up wire - is suspect. That's straight forward logic.

Much truth there, which is why my suggested protocols involve manual switching. Not that any of the faith-based or wire peddlers have actually taken me up on this, but there's always hope.

 

[Panicos K]

This is nonsense. Someone 'suggests', out of the blue, that a switch hides cable differences. Do you guys have no self respect??

jd

A switch?What about the extra cables,sockets,box wiring?Yes,I agree,we all should have some self respect.

 

[Panicos K]

There were no relays in ww comparator -please read the patent.
But regarding the releys - if a preamp uses relays for input switching they compromise the sound so much that one can use cheap RS wires?

This does not mean that you can add more evil than you already have.

 

[Andre Visser]

The box is made so that it can be connected to the devices without cables; there are short copper (probably OFC) jumpers with OFC RCAs supplied. If you put the devices back to back you can connect the box inbetween with thode jumpers (ca. 5cm long). That is how we did it.

I will always be in favour of swapping cables by hand.

If you've used it what do you think of the results, did you listen with and without it?

 

[vuki]

This does not mean that you can add more evil than you already have.

So you should hear the difference between the cables even if the box uses relays?

 

[vuki]

I will always be in favour of swapping cables by hand.

If you've used it what do you think of the results, did you listen with and without it?

Of course I listened with and without it - I thought it influenced the sound less then cheap black noname cable. But once in a system out of a 4-5 cables only Kimber PBJ sounded different than bypass - a bit harsh.😱 PBJ was the only unshielded cable at the test 🙂

 

[Johnloudb]

John is this documented somewhere?

jd

No, I was just referring to the extended listening blind tests Hansen did of Shalco switches and relays in the original Blowtorch thread. So, that not cables, but of the similar ilk as cables also have contacts.

I think blind testing can work. I'm just disapointed that people dismiss extended listening blind tests. Do you know about echolocation? Some blind people can learn this skill to visualize their environment and can play basket ball, roller blade ...

And places they are familiar with they negotiate faster, and new places require some learning. We had a discussion in a thread at HTGuide.com about this here:

HTGuide Forum - Blind boy sees with his ears

I don't know how audible cables are but you aren't going to find out in a short blind tests.

 

[Panicos K]

So you should hear the difference between the cables even if the box uses relays?

I don't know,but I would surely hear more differences if my system had less switches,relays,connectors and wiring🙂

 

[event horizon]

Obviously adding a significant number of connections into any system isn't ideal & is quite likely to mess up the object of the exercise, looking at the nice box there i can see a load of them 😱

Instead of a switch or relay why not mount a pair of mosfets back to back so you at least do away with at least one possible contaminated switch section.

Connecting them Drain, Gate, Source, Source, Gate, Drain with the gates connected together & input/output as the drains will result in an AC switch with very low DC or AC resistance. Just keep the 12V supply floating on each channel.

I hate getting into arguements so i doubt i'll post on this thread after this one, however i assume that all the people that can't hear a difference between cables are using stuff the same as this?

After all, there are no differences between cables. I found one with gold plating just to satisfy those who might say that connections oxidize, don't want any nasties after all

 

[Andre Visser]

Of course I listened with and without it - I thought it influenced the sound less then cheap black noname cable.

I would hope so. 😀

But once in a system out of a 4-5 cables only Kimber PBJ sounded different than bypass - a bit harsh.😱 PBJ was the only unshielded cable at the test 🙂

Did you test these cables without the box also?

I believe you will always listen to the weakest link in the chain, if you connect two IC's in series you will hear the worse one.

 

[vuki]

Did you this and that... Yes I did.
Did any of you great cable differences proponents ever tried simple, honest blind cable test? And if yes what was the result? Anyone?