How would you determine that a difference is real? By claiming to have "heard it" after listening for a week?
If so, then when someone claims to have heard a ghost in their attic, it too must also be real, correct? Because they "heard it"?
Believe what? Who disbelieves that you have "heard" what you claimed? No one here. I believe you.
That isn't the question. The question is: is "it" real.
Did the soundwaves impinging upon your ears change to the point of audibility, or did you simply imagine it? What is your understanding of how the imagination creeps into ear/brain "hearing" process and what have you done throughout your audiophile life to prevent it?
Have you noticed any correlation between the believers and one's own grasp of humanity?
And I had you down as a very cautious type of fellow SY😉
Get some of these people to your home and you would never get rid of them. They would suddenly require more of your best wine, and only when you had broached the last bottle would they grudgingly leave.😀
EDIT: ....and then tell you that there was no difference in nose or palate!!!😀😀
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Curly, did you miss my reply to panikos and pointed out again to andre about my personal experiences that led me to these conclusions??
Please, read what I say. I do not mind you 'taking me to task' on anything I say....as long as I have said it ok?
Please curly, if you want to be part of the conversation, please make an effort to grasp the basics.
AND, stop accusing others of your own actions!
You asked me what my experience was, and stop taking my knowledge from books, correct?
You gave admitted you have not and will not do any test with controls. Ok then, what is your experience that tells you of the many unknown pitfalls? (and if they're unknown, how do you know they are there?...at least make a logical objection in your vain attempts to hold you ignorant position).
The continuing education of curly, re-read what has been pot to you. If needed, level matching actually improves transparency.
Sigh. (do we have a 'banging your head against a brick wall smiley here?) Please curly, understand the basics. You can take as LONG as YOU want. For the umpteenth time. You already take that amount of time in your normal testing. Just do it without knowledge of the cable. that is it. Do everything else as normal.
Please let us know you got this. Please don't bring it up again (if you need to have it clarified more then ask, but let's get it out of the way once and for all ok?)
Oh dear. At least doomlord was open and honest about his system (not that I see i=t negates him talking about cables and any effects they may have from a scientific perspective), and I recall at the time brett (I think it was) asking the subjectivist what his system consisted of. We have not ever had a response to that.
I, for one, do NOT automatically assume a 'great' system simply because someone claims to hear the effects of different cables.
Hmm. I cannot get past first base with this one. Perhaps someone will need to explain it to me?
Firstly, I assume these 'fast and slow' relates to audio reproduction?
Well, have you ever gone to a concert and came away saying 'well, that performance was fast (or slow)'??? (of course I am using those words in the same manner as it would be with reproduction, not the speed of the performance)
If we have never done that, and (surely) there is a vastly greater amount of information being presented to us a a live gig, then surely your hypothesis falls flat on it's face?
Unless I have completely missed your po9int......
That does not sound good does it. Was this covered briefly before? (ie, depends on what is being investigated, sometimes it IS ok to discard outliers?? ie not an attempt to corrupt)
In any case, it goes straight back to my many earlier comments, find and fix the flaws and do the test so that it CAN show differences if they exist.
Point is, DO something.(general comment to all)
I saw panikos comment later, but am still not convinced. Why is a switch box a magic switch box?
Why does it only seem to bring the good one down to the bad level??
In any case, the only way to prove it is to be able to identify cables without a switch box, and not be able to identify cables with a switch box. And to date, no-one has been able to idntify which cable is which by sound alone. So have doubts about this one getting off the ground.
Andre, I recall your comment that the wrong cable can make a $10000 speaker sound like a $5000 speaker.
that does NOT imply small effects. It in0plies large, easily noticable profound effects would you not agree??
And a mere switch is enough to swamp that massive effect?
(you do have switches in your preamp?????are they acceptable to you?)
Research EnABLed cables? Why?
If millions and millions of humans perceive sound waves superbly enough (naturally or with extensive training) to hear ghosts, what would prevent a few thousand from hearing dotted cables?
Btw, I still don't have an answer to my question, illustrated unambiguously here.
TIA
forgot to add on the point 'my ears are not your ears'.
Take even the most basic of audio concepts, centre image.
I set up my system (using whatever I needed to) so that the centre image was dead centre for me. (we had it all measured yada yada, and we could point to the exact mid centre point etc).
And I sat my mate down, and played the stuff to him (pink noise, test tracks 'the sound should be coming ...' etc etc).
We could not agree on this most simple and basic part of audio reproduction! Our centres differed by six or eight inches!! (was a long time ago now) Of course test a lot and there will be some that agree with me, some to the left and some to the right etc etc.
Centre image is at least a 'concrete' thing we can all agree on and actually test for. If we hear so differently on basics like that, how can we ever agree on 'chocolate midrange with a hint of cinnamon'????
(I am assuming that the both of us have 'normal' hearing, and am pretty confident of that)
Take even the most basic of audio concepts, centre image.
I set up my system (using whatever I needed to) so that the centre image was dead centre for me. (we had it all measured yada yada, and we could point to the exact mid centre point etc).
And I sat my mate down, and played the stuff to him (pink noise, test tracks 'the sound should be coming ...' etc etc).
We could not agree on this most simple and basic part of audio reproduction! Our centres differed by six or eight inches!! (was a long time ago now) Of course test a lot and there will be some that agree with me, some to the left and some to the right etc etc.
Centre image is at least a 'concrete' thing we can all agree on and actually test for. If we hear so differently on basics like that, how can we ever agree on 'chocolate midrange with a hint of cinnamon'????
(I am assuming that the both of us have 'normal' hearing, and am pretty confident of that)
So can you hear the studio cabling effects in these recordings?
They must all use "good" (your self defined term) cabling I assume, without any loss of detail and "resolving-ness".
Or do your "good" cables somehow (no "good" explanation required or expected) reverse/transmogrify any "bad" cabling effects embedded in the recordings?
Have no idea, but that's why I offered the invitation to others, just so I'm not a sample of one.
It's possible at a minimum one of you had imperfect hearing that day. When suffering from a cold I can pop an ear and realign the centre double that distance. You learn these pitfalls. That or perhaps a boundary reflection was interacting with a difference between your two off-axis perceptions, which I'ld still call a set up issue. I generally use '40s and '50s jazz for this aspect of tuning, much less labourious than tones. 🙂
Beyond that your talking about an absolute. Changes are differential by.... definition. You and your friend might disagree on the exact position of centre but did you disagree if that image moved left or right? Presumably you heard it shift in the same direction required to make it right for them? So if a component makes an audible change the direction and magnitude are arguably more important than the starting point.
Terry,both cables's "sound" will be altered.What I meant was that the listener will take advantage of the sound of his own cable because he knows it better than the other one on test,and try to spot the difference between the two.If sound of both cables is altered,then the listener looses his point of reference.It is as if he listens to two unknown cables,contaminated by the additions of the two extra cables,switches,connectors etc.....It is very likely that through such a switching box,differences will become even smaller,even vanish.One test with and one without a switching box would perhaps be more enlightening?
OFFICIAL WARNING This thread will self destruct at the 10,000 post mark. At this rate you have until about Friday. After this thread is closed anyone who starts or even thinks about starting another thread on cables will hear a knock at their door. Be afraid. Be very afraid. It's the ghost of cables past.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
Now step away from the keyboard, grab a soldering iron and go do something, anything, maybe even listen to some music. This thread has turned some of you from nice boys into naughty ones. And you know what happens to naughty boys at this time of year.
is coming in 16 days and he's checking twice.
If there is a difference that I can hear,I will hear it.To decide if that difference is a real improvement for me,usually take days.I always listen to many of my records before I am convinced about improvements.
When are YOU certain that what you hear is real?
This thread will self destruct at the 10,000 post mark. At this rate you have until about Friday. After this thread is closed anyone who starts or even thinks about starting another thread on cables will hear a knock at their door. Be afraid. Be very afraid. It's the ghost of cables past.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
Now step away from the keyboard, grab a soldering iron and go do something, anything, maybe even listen to some music. This thread has turned some of you from nice boys into naughty ones. And you know what happens to naughty boys at this time of year.
Is coming in 16 days and he's checking twice.
May I suggest that all who have posted in this thread give $50.00 each and buy a nice pair of interconnects to the member who will send post #10000?Hahahahaha
Member
Joined 2002
This thread will self destruct at the 10,000 post mark. At this rate you have until about Friday. After this thread is closed anyone who starts or even thinks about starting another thread on cables will hear a knock at their door. Be afraid. Be very afraid. It's the ghost of cables past.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
Now step away from the keyboard, grab a soldering iron and go do something, anything, maybe even listen to some music. This thread has turned some of you from nice boys into naughty ones. And you know what happens to naughty boys at this time of year.
is coming in 16 days and he's checking twice.
Why did you have to pee on the parade ?
'cause I couldn't find a tree.
Keep it up Jason, you're helping to wind down this moderating nightmare.
Keep it up Jason, you're helping to wind down this moderating nightmare.
That you can hear, what you will hear, was not the question. Again, I believe you.
This, was:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This thread will self destruct at the 10,000 post mark.
Can't you wait til 2012? Things will take care of themselves then.
Or so it is believed.
cheers,
AJ
p.s. Thank goodness for the multi-quote feature. Let's hope folks use it to keep the post numbers down 🙂
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