Firstly, thanks for your answer. You disagree with my (one example of many) psychoacoustic 'hypothesis'.
Can I ask you, how can you personally refute a 'scientific finding'? Can you not see how arrogant and blind that is?
I agree with janneman, I am not sure you were even aware of that phenomenon....and if so it might be a stretch to believe you know of the many others.
Not quite sure where to go from here curly, but with all due respect you should not be posting in the thread, you have NO grasp of the basic topic under discussion.
Just so's you know, there is no real debate that cables do NOT pass any realistic well conducted test. the debate comes after that.....and is covered by these very things you seem to know nothing about.
It IS very interesting tho, I encourage you to learn about it!! fascinating really.
Well lets say that level differences might not have that effect in all cases. But, if it can have an effect in SOME cases then it is prudent (and oh so simple anyway) to take it into account.
But if they did, why buy a cable when you can turn the vol knob?
Frank, I do agree but I'm quite sure even if you dont look, you will turn your system to closely the same volume with the same music track, every time you listen. (Unless you feel like making noise of course 🙂 ) With aspects like stage focus, ambience also detail and tonality to a certain extend, you will find that these kind of level differences have no effect.
As said earlier, certain equipment sound good only at one volume level, so level matching become irrelevant in that case unless both are set to zero. 😀
Andre, you seem happy with your delusions so what can I say?
(btw, bulltish = buzzwords; stage focus, ambience, etc.)
Frank
But there are measurable differences, the only problem is to decide what level of differences are audible and to whom. Certainly, there will be different opinions on that as people's hearing and LISTENING ability vary quite a lot.
My brother can hear a transistor amp, driving a dummy load, sing to over 22kHz, I can't even hear it no matter how hard I try. In other aspects I can hear differences he can't.
Science can say what it wants. I have changed cables and altered volume levels between changes many many times, as the cabling was in my system for extended amounts of time. I do not switch back and forth one song at a time, but listen over a period of a week or more to a "new" cable. I am not listening to level differences and with the randomness that I vary volume levels on accident while listening, I would come to dead draw every time if this was the case in your scenarios stated above. Sorry these do not fly for me.
Ah well, bulltish, as always, reigns supreme promulgated, as always, by the the most vocal bulltish artists.
Curly, you have the provisional bulltish-artist award though, I'm sure, there are far bigger bulltish artists than you. The Pope, for example, is a prime example but in a different field. I'm not sure what the long frock , pointy hat and smoky canister are meant to do but, I'm sure, it isn't a Ryanair ticket to heaven.
Curly, you have the provisional bulltish-artist award though, I'm sure, there are far bigger bulltish artists than you. The Pope, for example, is a prime example but in a different field. I'm not sure what the long frock , pointy hat and smoky canister are meant to do but, I'm sure, it isn't a Ryanair ticket to heaven.
Personlly I think two cables that "sound"similar will not need level matching.If they need level matching to me this means they have at least FR difference.Which brings me again back and wonder if preference to one of the two cables has to do with FR only.What I find is that a shrill voice that annoys me,is shrill at all levels,while the rest of that cable's "sound"seems to be ok.This might sound that all is either FR or level related.To me it isn't.Music does more things to the individual anong them things that I cannot explain,like for example to excite your senses something that personaly I don't notice with every cable,cartridge,amplifier or speaker I try.It took years to set up a system that I like the way I like my present system.I don't know if I could have done this any other way.Point is that now I am sure I'm enjoying music more than with any of my previous systems.Sadly it is the most expensive too so far🙂
Janneman,
I do not listen for short periods of time to a "test" cable(s) in my system and the volume levels vary randomly during the testing period. I do not do anything differently than I would normally do when listening to my music. Over a period of a week or more, I get a very good idea of the differences that have come to my system with the new cable inserted. Level differences are of no interest as they are random, just like my normal listening conditions are.
I could do this over and over again over the course of weeks, which I have regularly done, and my findings have varied not. I know what my system sounds like and I know when something has changed.
Yeah, by ABX the detectable difference for level is 0.1dB, according to Paul Frindle even as low as 0.05dB, but an ABX is an discrimination test.
Normally during a comparison it is a different test; it is more like something called "paired preference test".
The argument around here is clearly not a level detection one, but an argument of different sound quality perception due to different levels.
Therefore my question if anybody has done a preference blind test with different levels and has found that,
1) a constant preference for the lower (or higher) level was established
and
2) found a reliable level threshold for this established preference
I´m not aware of any scientific paper on this topic.
The turn to zero procedure is quite often used, and that´s why i wrote that it seems normally to be sufficient to reach a level band choosen by ear. 🙂
Wishes
I hear many things, however, I know that my brain makes me a prime example of a bulltish artist so I discount most of what I hear until another time/day. I leave one CD playing for 4 to 5 hours on loop and it sounds different from one song to a repeat so what does that say about human cognition (and I'm not alone in that).
Frank
See how quickly you lose it? Here you say your sure without any backup or even supporting arguments; it's just conjecture from your part, and....
... here it suddenly is presented as proven fact. Well, it's STILL conjecture from your part, Andre.
jd
Of course that happens, but the question on hand is if the level difference swaps out any sort of "sonic fingerprint" a piece of equipment might have.
Therefore my question regarding level difference thresholds for an established preference.
So far i didn´t do any tests on this myself, but can only conclude from personal experience and blind tests on other topics.
If results of level matched blind tests (or even dbts) confirm the results of sighted tests without level matching, the conclusion might be justified that the influence of different levels can be less than argued, at least be dependent on the specific test protocol.
Wishes
What Curly says here is perhaps something that many don't pay any attention to.Having a cable in your system that has minor differences to your "reference" cable,for some time,allows you to listen to more music and at any volume you feel confortable,till you finally realize what exactly the changes are,and decide whether these changes were improvements,or not.In a well set-up system,these changes are usually NOT.
It's really simple. If you are aware that level differences cause perception differences, and you want to find out if two cables sound different, you should match levels. If you don't, you're just fooling around, that should be clear to anyone with a grasp of logic. That's OK, but don't expect us to pay any attention to what you say.
jd
Frequency response errors are not what I am listening for as these are minute in difference, as has been stated over and over again here and else where. Was it not determined that these minute differences are indistinguishable levels? How on earth would a cable change make these changes significant then? This is not about frequency response or volume level changes. It is about how a component changes the way that music sounds. Some cables collapse an image and flatten it, some expand it to the point of exaggeration, some are more transparent allowing images to better be defined and focused. Some cables have a leaner or drier sound to they while others have a bit of richness to them. I would imagine that these cables will measure as flat in frequency as any others do. These are what I am listening for and nothing to do with volume levels, or else volume levels would change these aspects with my reference cabling. Science may have opinions about what people "should" hear and how, but these issues are not defined or discussed and have more to do with what makes a good system great.
Last edited:
It says that your brain looses its interrest if you force it to listan to the same song for 4-5 hours.And surely,you are not alone to that😀That is not listening to music.It is torture🙄
Janneman,
I am not saying that what you state is not true, but in random usage, these differences should balance out. I listen for extended periods and vary volumes, just like i would do if i were simply listening to my normal system. I am not listening for differences per say, I am interested in what has changed with regards to the music that I play, if at all. Over a period of time, I can hear if these changes exist. If I think that I have heard a specific change I will notice it when I go back to my reference cabling. If I was wrong, then I will not notice the changes that I thought I might have heard. This takes a long time to determine and is a slow process. I prefer to live with something for a longer period of time as short term changes are not always for the better or worse for that matter.
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.