Apropos of this discussion, I read the most interesting little article in November QST -- some Danish ham operator was hearing his 80m CW QSO repeated to him -- in grabbing the audio and measuring the timing he determined that the effective distance that the signal traveled was about 2.8 circumferences of the earth -- it awaited an explanation from some weather guys who explained that there is atmospheric tunneling just below 5 MHz.
Just switching interconnects and refreshing the junction can have a measurable effect. This is easily demonstrated. Everyone who has worked in a lab knows this -- why else do we have to wait for systems to settle? If you've got a setup which can measure nano-volts just approaching a cable is going to cause the meter to jiggle. Move it on the table and the tribo effect kicks in.
Anyone interested ? -- interesting discussion on low loss window-lines (ladder lines) and the rain...all those 0.10's of a dB eventually add up!
Just switching interconnects and refreshing the junction can have a measurable effect. This is easily demonstrated. Everyone who has worked in a lab knows this -- why else do we have to wait for systems to settle? If you've got a setup which can measure nano-volts just approaching a cable is going to cause the meter to jiggle. Move it on the table and the tribo effect kicks in.
Anyone interested ? -- interesting discussion on low loss window-lines (ladder lines) and the rain...all those 0.10's of a dB eventually add up!
I agree, strange how an interesting discussion always get sidetracked with nonsense.
not much hope
there's more there that's relevant than you seem to want to comprehend... ever hear of electrolyte films... or do all your metal-metal interfaces operate in a vacuum? What mechanism do you propose for corrosion in micropores, for instance?
but then, given the mindset, I'm not surprised, since there seems to be little mutual respect across fields exhibited here.
there's more there that's relevant than you seem to want to comprehend... ever hear of electrolyte films... or do all your metal-metal interfaces operate in a vacuum? What mechanism do you propose for corrosion in micropores, for instance?
but then, given the mindset, I'm not surprised, since there seems to be little mutual respect across fields exhibited here.
Auplater
Being a metallurgical engineer with metal finishing experience - I feel that this topic ( Metal surface engineering and properties of such interface) requires one with knowledge like yourself to explain to the audience here if you please.
Also this topic of cables seems too controversial - I wonder why people assume that the opposing views are expressed by special interest ? If one is willing to accept the other is sincere in what ever his/her belief but may require attention to scientific analysis done , this thread can benefit. John Curl is willing to open a text book and read and that I appreciate.
Your input is really interesting as much as what Simon had placed- we may need more analysis what is the quality of plating of those connectors.
How many would have seen Gold plating tank of more than a cubic foot ? I have seen very large tank in an aero space industry!
Kannan
Being a metallurgical engineer with metal finishing experience - I feel that this topic ( Metal surface engineering and properties of such interface) requires one with knowledge like yourself to explain to the audience here if you please.
Also this topic of cables seems too controversial - I wonder why people assume that the opposing views are expressed by special interest ? If one is willing to accept the other is sincere in what ever his/her belief but may require attention to scientific analysis done , this thread can benefit. John Curl is willing to open a text book and read and that I appreciate.
Your input is really interesting as much as what Simon had placed- we may need more analysis what is the quality of plating of those connectors.
How many would have seen Gold plating tank of more than a cubic foot ? I have seen very large tank in an aero space industry!
Kannan
Between auplater, jneutron and metalman we have enough knowledge to fill many volumes. Still the debate lingers on. Heck, some here even get personal about something so subjective. I find it laughable, confusing and disturbing all at the same time.
Auplater, I think that you recommended the wrong book, which would not have made any difference, except I have it here by my side, since I have owned it for years. However, let me recommend to everyone, something more appropriate, and slightly easier to read: 'Electronic Properties of Materials' by Rolf E. Hummel
Chapter 7 of this textbook is crammed with useful info about 'Electrical Conduction in Metals and Alloys' which is the title of the chapter. It explains both the Drude and the Quantum Mechanical, models of conductivity, and their differences, for example.
In Chapter 20, the Debye Model is discussed. I think that this name was brought up earlier, on this thread. This is the sort of texbook that I think would be more valuable for discussion of this topic.
Chapter 7 of this textbook is crammed with useful info about 'Electrical Conduction in Metals and Alloys' which is the title of the chapter. It explains both the Drude and the Quantum Mechanical, models of conductivity, and their differences, for example.
In Chapter 20, the Debye Model is discussed. I think that this name was brought up earlier, on this thread. This is the sort of texbook that I think would be more valuable for discussion of this topic.
Gold "oxide"? Speaking of dirty connectors, I pulled an amp of the shelf that I have not used in a few years. The gold connectors were all covered with a thin white grunge. The rest of the amp did not appear to be, but it's not shiny gold.
Acetone did not do a great job of cleaning this off, will try alcohol today. I suppose it's really just atmospheric gunk, but it looks awful and makes for a bad contact. This poor little amp has lived in Hawaii, California, Washington, Oregon and North Carolina. Don't know where it got infected.
Acetone did not do a great job of cleaning this off, will try alcohol today. I suppose it's really just atmospheric gunk, but it looks awful and makes for a bad contact. This poor little amp has lived in Hawaii, California, Washington, Oregon and North Carolina. Don't know where it got infected.
You will be better off replacing the connectors. The first time I saw the cosmetic gold plating on an audio connector I thought "What kind of fool do they take me for?" Real gold plating is an art more than a science. What you most likely have are what I call shinny metal under that cosmetic gold. Cleaning is at best temporary.
There are two major manufacturers of pro audio connectors. One started out making connectors that did not quite mate as they built to "Standard Drawings." When they realized everyone else stayed on the edge of the spec.s not in the center of the range, they started making better connectors and selling lots more. Then they had a plating problem on their gold connectors. If you noticed, they replaced them no questions asked and quickly fixed whatever the problem was.
The other guys also had a run with bad plating. They denied any problems, were nasty if you mentioned it anywhere. Took them more than a year to fix it and then started asking why people were no longer buying their products again now that they worked again.
If you do want to clean the connectors try Dawn dish washing detergent and water, dry them and then coat with Caig De-oxit. In a pinch Radio Shack Color TV Tuner cleaner will work for a few weeks.
cleaning and adhesion
Panomaniac...
If dish detergent doesn't work, try some lemon juice or vinegar + a pinch of salt.. then rinse with water and then acetone to remove the residual water (to prevent pore corrosion), dry thoroughly, and coat with DeOxit, etc. This all assumes you want to keep them and not replace. The white crud, as Ed states, is most likely the base metal corroding through the pores.
Most plating failures can be traced to either poor cleaning/deoxidizing prior to plating, poor maintenance of the electrolyte and/or processing cycle during operation, or using an incorrect cycle during processing.
Platers can be a bit cantankerous at times...
😉
John L.
Panomaniac...
If dish detergent doesn't work, try some lemon juice or vinegar + a pinch of salt.. then rinse with water and then acetone to remove the residual water (to prevent pore corrosion), dry thoroughly, and coat with DeOxit, etc. This all assumes you want to keep them and not replace. The white crud, as Ed states, is most likely the base metal corroding through the pores.
Most plating failures can be traced to either poor cleaning/deoxidizing prior to plating, poor maintenance of the electrolyte and/or processing cycle during operation, or using an incorrect cycle during processing.
Platers can be a bit cantankerous at times...
😉John L.
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Off Topic-iPod enjoyment
My point is simple, though--I would rather be enjoying music, even if it is from an imperfect source that not enjoying anything!
Another case in point, I really enjoy old, crappy recordings of delta blues artists. The MUSIC is the key, even if I have to work through the pops, crackles, and "tinny" artifacts of the recording to mentally put myself in a room with, say, Muddy Waters. The MUSIC is so moving that the MEDIUM becomes secondary.
John, if your enjoyment of music has been restricted by the imperfections of the reproduction channel, then I am truly sorry that your work has caused you to lose this joy.
PS Serious question: If you are so discerning, why do you fiddle with electronic audio in the first place? Why not restrict your listening to live concerts? I understand that you are heavily involved in designing audio equipment, so it would be disingenuous for you to openly advocate this paradigm, but I truly don't understand where your threshold is for tolerating electronic imperfections in audio reproduction. I'm just trying to understand your argument better.
I'm sorry that you choose to let your quest for good sounding audio reproduction get in the way of your enjoyment of music! I personally like my iPod and typically listen to poorly reproduced NPR podcasts through noise isolating earbuds during work since my lab is really loud and we need to wear hearing protection. Yes, I also do listen to music, and have made very high quality VBR MP3's of many of my music files to listen to on the iPod. Would I rather be listening to my big system at home or through my good headphones (I really like my AudioTechnica ATH900's for the price, though they can be a little bass heavy--I need to build a preamp filter to even that out, but that is surely off topic. . . )? Sure!
My point is simple, though--I would rather be enjoying music, even if it is from an imperfect source that not enjoying anything!
Another case in point, I really enjoy old, crappy recordings of delta blues artists. The MUSIC is the key, even if I have to work through the pops, crackles, and "tinny" artifacts of the recording to mentally put myself in a room with, say, Muddy Waters. The MUSIC is so moving that the MEDIUM becomes secondary.
John, if your enjoyment of music has been restricted by the imperfections of the reproduction channel, then I am truly sorry that your work has caused you to lose this joy.
PS Serious question: If you are so discerning, why do you fiddle with electronic audio in the first place? Why not restrict your listening to live concerts? I understand that you are heavily involved in designing audio equipment, so it would be disingenuous for you to openly advocate this paradigm, but I truly don't understand where your threshold is for tolerating electronic imperfections in audio reproduction. I'm just trying to understand your argument better.
Regarding the comments of "why do you only change the extension cord to your equipment, and disregard the SQ of the installation wiring in the wall?"
A fellow Danish enthusiast, who is an electrical engineer did these 2 experiments when refurbishing the wiring of his house:
He wired his house, so that the extension cord could drive his amplifier in two ways: 1) Either the extension cord was inserted in the circuit conventionally, that is between the wall socket and the amplifier.
2) Alternatively, the extension cord was inserted just after the fuse board, where the mains entered his house. In this situation, the amplifier was connected to the solid core installation cable directly.
In situation 1, he could hear differences in SQ with different extension cords.
In situation 2 he could not.
This suggests that the last few feet of cable are sonically more important than the more distant ones.
A fellow Danish enthusiast, who is an electrical engineer did these 2 experiments when refurbishing the wiring of his house:
He wired his house, so that the extension cord could drive his amplifier in two ways: 1) Either the extension cord was inserted in the circuit conventionally, that is between the wall socket and the amplifier.
2) Alternatively, the extension cord was inserted just after the fuse board, where the mains entered his house. In this situation, the amplifier was connected to the solid core installation cable directly.
In situation 1, he could hear differences in SQ with different extension cords.
In situation 2 he could not.
This suggests that the last few feet of cable are sonically more important than the more distant ones.
Going the other way...
I'm sorry that you choose to let your quest for good sounding audio reproduction get in the way of your enjoyment of music! I personally like my vinyl.....
I'm sorry that you choose to let your quest for good sounding audio reproduction get in the way of your enjoyment of music! I personally like my cassettes.....
I'm sorry that you choose to let your quest for good sounding audio reproduction get in the way of your enjoyment of music! I personally like my 8-tracks.....
I'm sorry that you choose to let your quest for good sounding audio reproduction get in the way of your enjoyment of music! I personally like my 78s.....
I'm sorry that you choose to let your quest for good sounding audio reproduction get in the way of your enjoyment of music! I personally like my Edison cylinders.....
Yes, in fact, I have enjoyed quality rips of Edison cylinders. It's sad you can't enjoy music without an iPod dfdye. 🙂
That is like saying that you would be sorry for me if I tended to avoid junk food. I have all the music that I need in my car, and home. However, I don't even like CD's so I don't play them every day.
I find a lot of enjoyment from public television, especially when they are running a fund drive (which is almost always). I get wonderful performances from do-wop (sp) to classical very night, on one channel or another. For some reason, I am not as annoyed by the sound quality on video as I am with audio. It probably is also due to the fact that I have 2 separate audio systems. One forgiving (for video) and one for accuracy and clarity (audio).
I find a lot of enjoyment from public television, especially when they are running a fund drive (which is almost always). I get wonderful performances from do-wop (sp) to classical very night, on one channel or another. For some reason, I am not as annoyed by the sound quality on video as I am with audio. It probably is also due to the fact that I have 2 separate audio systems. One forgiving (for video) and one for accuracy and clarity (audio).
Ah, but you see I DO enjoy music from vinyl, CD's iPods, and yes, even cassettes (my wife thinks I should junk the tape deck, but I can't bring my self to do it).
I still try to get enjoyment whenever I can while recognizing the limitations of a medium. I still try to get the best sound quality I can when I purchase music and when I build audio equipment to play that music. If I only had a copy of an old blues album on vinyl, I wouldn't hesitate to play that rather than not enjoying the album. Personally, I don't have a turntable or any vinyl since I grew up with cassettes, but I am sure I will build or buy one when I finally steal all of my parent's original Beatles albums on vinyl. They also have a ton of good orchestral recordings, and some other stuff. . . Crud, now I think I am talking myself into building a turntable and RIAA amp. . . 😀
I still haven't heard any original Edison cylinders other than random clips, though, so you have me there! 😉
Dfdye, please understand, I have phono, CD, SACD, DVD, FM, analog cassettes, master tapes, I just don't do MP3 or have an Ipod. I have CD's, DVD's and vinyl records of blues, jazz, classical, rock, folk, etc. However, I am not ADDICTED to listening to music at every moment in my life, like some people. Therefore, I do not go around with ear pods in my ear, when driving, or walking. I still have a couple of old Walkman playback units that sound pretty good. And I have the ultimate, a complete FM radio that is enclosed in a pair of earphones, for late night listening. Is that enough, or must I further digitize?
Terrible analogy, John. Junk food brings enjoyment at a price--clogged arteries, high blood pressure, diabetes, etc. iPod music can be decent, if not 100% "accurate and clear." A better analogy would be that, assuming you like steak, that you refused to eat anything but select Kobe and turned your nose up at good old fashioned american NY strips.
Well, hell, this blows my theory out of the water!
Seriously, I too enjoy PBS, especially since they went to high def and improved the sound quality a ton. I also enjoy movies with big bangs. I am with you, too, that I have a different set of criteria for audio accompanying video than for stand alone recordings. My "TV sub" goes nowhere near my "good" stereo--it would just sound weird. Crap, we are just about to agree here. This is not going to be a productive post at all . . .
How about this, I use standard cables and power cords in all of those pieces of equipment! How about that for getting back into an argument? 🙂
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