The exception is long lines- I mean REALLY long, not 5-10m. Wavelengths at 20kHz are driving distance.
What?
Well Frank, I guess that kind of sums things up. Paulinator has only 3 months in a high end shop to draw on, I get all my opinions from Bruce Rozenblit , and you make your arguments by quoting cable manufacturers web sites. So now that we have that cleared up, would you care to comment on any of the points I've raised?
What exists out side of Z?
Why are there no anechoic chamber measurements?
What significant differences have been seen on null tests?
Chris
Well Frank, I guess that kind of sums things up. Paulinator has only 3 months in a high end shop to draw on, I get all my opinions from Bruce Rozenblit , and you make your arguments by quoting cable manufacturers web sites. So now that we have that cleared up, would you care to comment on any of the points I've raised?
What exists out side of Z?
Why are there no anechoic chamber measurements?
What significant differences have been seen on null tests?
Chris
Re: What?
Konnichiwa,
A to Y, if my english classes serve.
It is always easy (and very tempting to marketing people) to try to charaterise stuff (not just audio - think of the Car Manufacturers Mpg, Mph, Torque etc. claims - non of these numbers tell you ANYTHING about how the car will really drive).
Sadly the numbers tell you exactly what you asked. LIke for example THD tells you not how audibly distorted a given amplifier will sound at a given power. It simply tells you what the total measured single-tone distortion was, without weigting for psychoacoustics and without accounting for non-harmonic distortion sources.
So, in cables what besides Z exists. Well, for M we have Magneto-Striction (Relevant primarily for Speaker Cables). For D we have Dielectric Absorbtion (material in Interconnects). For P we thermoelectric contact potential. I'm sure if I dig long enough I can fill in from A 2 Y to mix with your Z.
If you also got your OTL Amp design from that source you may wish to re-design it to improve the various stages slew limits (among other things).
Not sure in what context. HOWEVER, unless you are planning to listen in an anechonic envoironment anechnonic measurements are absolutely and utterly meaningless in themselves. They show that the speaker designer could meet a given target well or not so well, yet the given target has little congruence with pecieved good sound, as anechonic measurements hide many, many fundamental sins that come back to haunt you in real rooms.
I assume you refer to tests in which the input signal is subtracted from the output signal after compensating R/L/C parameters?
I did reference a test in HFW that showed for certain generic stranded cables residuals after such nulling of around -66db in the worst case and in the region of -80..-90db with all tested cables.
I found interesting, if inconclusive (because of not "good enough" test gear) results using noiseload testing which is slightly more sophisticated in many ways than a "null" test.
Anyway, if you wish to disbelieve, who am I to tell you different. That is as long as you keep it down and try not to convert those to your belief who have passed from belief into gnosis.
For he who knows, knows, he who believes knows not.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
Christopher said:
A to Y, if my english classes serve.
It is always easy (and very tempting to marketing people) to try to charaterise stuff (not just audio - think of the Car Manufacturers Mpg, Mph, Torque etc. claims - non of these numbers tell you ANYTHING about how the car will really drive).
Sadly the numbers tell you exactly what you asked. LIke for example THD tells you not how audibly distorted a given amplifier will sound at a given power. It simply tells you what the total measured single-tone distortion was, without weigting for psychoacoustics and without accounting for non-harmonic distortion sources.
So, in cables what besides Z exists. Well, for M we have Magneto-Striction (Relevant primarily for Speaker Cables). For D we have Dielectric Absorbtion (material in Interconnects). For P we thermoelectric contact potential. I'm sure if I dig long enough I can fill in from A 2 Y to mix with your Z.
Christopher said:
If you also got your OTL Amp design from that source you may wish to re-design it to improve the various stages slew limits (among other things).
Christopher said:
Not sure in what context. HOWEVER, unless you are planning to listen in an anechonic envoironment anechnonic measurements are absolutely and utterly meaningless in themselves. They show that the speaker designer could meet a given target well or not so well, yet the given target has little congruence with pecieved good sound, as anechonic measurements hide many, many fundamental sins that come back to haunt you in real rooms.
Christopher said:
I assume you refer to tests in which the input signal is subtracted from the output signal after compensating R/L/C parameters?
I did reference a test in HFW that showed for certain generic stranded cables residuals after such nulling of around -66db in the worst case and in the region of -80..-90db with all tested cables.
I found interesting, if inconclusive (because of not "good enough" test gear) results using noiseload testing which is slightly more sophisticated in many ways than a "null" test.
Anyway, if you wish to disbelieve, who am I to tell you different. That is as long as you keep it down and try not to convert those to your belief who have passed from belief into gnosis.
For he who knows, knows, he who believes knows not.
Sayonara
Hi,
Yes, maybe... in ten years from now provided you get your facts straight too...
Seems some people want to feel offended over nothing?
Cheers, 😉
Yes, maybe... in ten years from now provided you get your facts straight too...
Seems some people want to feel offended over nothing?
Cheers, 😉
Re: Re: What?
And of course, golden ears will hear the differences ?
In the room (with 40dB broadband background noise floor) ?
With speakers (only the best reach -60dB distortion levels, and only at certain favourable frequency, most will hover at -40 to -50dB at intented SPLs) ?
Using ears (notoriously ineffective at detecting distortion, highly nonlinear, unable to distinguish low level signals in presence of large level signals [saturation], and most important, prone to psychoacoustic manipulations) ?
Anyway, if you wish to believe, who am I to tell you different. That is as long as you keep it down and try not to convert those to your belief who believe in a true scientific method.
Cheers
(Sayonara in Australian)
PS whether you wear a woolen sweater or not while evaluating cables, or if your listening position is not within millimeters of reference spot will have FAR greater influence on sound than any cable ever will. Haven't heard you golden eared ones discussing that. Oops, I may have started another "revolution":
"You have spend 2K on cables. 5K on amplifiaction. 10K on speakers. xK on Mpingo blocks. But sound is still cold and sterile!
We now bring to you a revolutionary product :
AudiophileUnderware (tm).
Brilliant highs without being clinically cold. Lucid, warm, intimate, silky smooth midrange. Firm, thrusting, fullsome, but gentle and caring bass. Only $99.99 in large, extra large, extra extra large and ohmygodwhatisthat sizes.
Special edition "GoldenBollocks" with silk woven insignia with your favourite audiophile phrase available for extra $49.99.
Be a star at your next audiophile meeting. Wear
AudiophileUnderware (tm).
and bring that warmth and intimacy where it really belongs."
Kuei Yang Wang said:
And of course, golden ears will hear the differences ?
In the room (with 40dB broadband background noise floor) ?
With speakers (only the best reach -60dB distortion levels, and only at certain favourable frequency, most will hover at -40 to -50dB at intented SPLs) ?
Using ears (notoriously ineffective at detecting distortion, highly nonlinear, unable to distinguish low level signals in presence of large level signals [saturation], and most important, prone to psychoacoustic manipulations) ?
Anyway, if you wish to believe, who am I to tell you different. That is as long as you keep it down and try not to convert those to your belief who believe in a true scientific method.
Cheers
(Sayonara in Australian)
PS whether you wear a woolen sweater or not while evaluating cables, or if your listening position is not within millimeters of reference spot will have FAR greater influence on sound than any cable ever will. Haven't heard you golden eared ones discussing that. Oops, I may have started another "revolution":
"You have spend 2K on cables. 5K on amplifiaction. 10K on speakers. xK on Mpingo blocks. But sound is still cold and sterile!
We now bring to you a revolutionary product :
AudiophileUnderware (tm).
Brilliant highs without being clinically cold. Lucid, warm, intimate, silky smooth midrange. Firm, thrusting, fullsome, but gentle and caring bass. Only $99.99 in large, extra large, extra extra large and ohmygodwhatisthat sizes.
Special edition "GoldenBollocks" with silk woven insignia with your favourite audiophile phrase available for extra $49.99.
Be a star at your next audiophile meeting. Wear
AudiophileUnderware (tm).
and bring that warmth and intimacy where it really belongs."
Panties und Unterthosen...
Hi,
Golden ears? Where, what , how?
Nobody said you need a pair of those......a bit of common sense and an open mind is all you need.
And why not?
A difference may still be heard, not necessarilly an improvement, but than again that's entirely subjective and system dependent, isn't it?
But of course, we all listen to our test gear and it's always right.
I just love the sound of my scopes.
Scientific? Guess you folk are just too scientific in taking the easy way out .
Not wanting to hear differences makes your life all the more easy, doesn't it?
I see, it's all about money again, isn't it? Well you're right, live is all about that once you want to play that game...
Ignorance is going to cost you a bundle too for the next ten years coming, ....your pick.
Cheers, 😉
Hi,
Golden ears? Where, what , how?
Nobody said you need a pair of those......a bit of common sense and an open mind is all you need.
And why not?
A difference may still be heard, not necessarilly an improvement, but than again that's entirely subjective and system dependent, isn't it?
But of course, we all listen to our test gear and it's always right.
I just love the sound of my scopes.
Scientific? Guess you folk are just too scientific in taking the easy way out .
Not wanting to hear differences makes your life all the more easy, doesn't it?
I see, it's all about money again, isn't it? Well you're right, live is all about that once you want to play that game...
Ignorance is going to cost you a bundle too for the next ten years coming, ....your pick.
Cheers, 😉
Re: Panties And Unerthosen...
It's called "self delusion" in my neck of the woods.
Look under dictionary under "detection". It requires that tools and methods used have HIGHER resolution than the thing you try to measure/detect. Here you are teling me that you can determine redshift of a 16th magnitude quasar using your opera glasses.
It simply DOESN'T WORK.
Scientific method involves removal of all present variables in the experiment in order to be able to be sure about influence of one, in this case cables. This means for examle your psyche must be the same (as you are subjective individual - and don't worry I am too), the position of your head must be EXACTLY the same (or off axis response peculiarities and diffraction/interference will alter speaker response curve to a far greater degree than cables connected will), your clothing, furniture in the room, presence of another person(s), background noise spectra, -EVERYTHING- has to be exactly the same. If then, and only then you hear the difference (and I need not even mention the importance of DBT requirement here), you can be sure that it is not your brain playing games on you.
But I wouldn't be holding my breath.
Bwahahahahahaha ! It will cost me a bundle ?
Better go and save more money for your next imaginary improvement device.
fdegrove said:
It's called "self delusion" in my neck of the woods.
Look under dictionary under "detection". It requires that tools and methods used have HIGHER resolution than the thing you try to measure/detect. Here you are teling me that you can determine redshift of a 16th magnitude quasar using your opera glasses.
It simply DOESN'T WORK.
Scientific method involves removal of all present variables in the experiment in order to be able to be sure about influence of one, in this case cables. This means for examle your psyche must be the same (as you are subjective individual - and don't worry I am too), the position of your head must be EXACTLY the same (or off axis response peculiarities and diffraction/interference will alter speaker response curve to a far greater degree than cables connected will), your clothing, furniture in the room, presence of another person(s), background noise spectra, -EVERYTHING- has to be exactly the same. If then, and only then you hear the difference (and I need not even mention the importance of DBT requirement here), you can be sure that it is not your brain playing games on you.
But I wouldn't be holding my breath.
Bwahahahahahaha ! It will cost me a bundle ?
Better go and save more money for your next imaginary improvement device.
fdegrove said:
Exactly as expected from a level of intelligence you have displayed so far in this forum.
You are not capable of understanding some of the most basic and simplest principles. I don't think I should be wasting any of my time rephrasing some of the discussion to the primary school backyard level so that you could fel at home.
In fact, I'll do what I shoudl have done long time ago.
Put you in a kill file. Be proud that there is at least ONE thing in your miserable life that absolutely noone else did.
More meaningless babble?
You never cease to amaze me with how you can continue to spout compost all the while making it smell like food.
I think the example was pretty clear, but I'll phrase it in more exact terms so you won't play little games with it.
An anechoic chamber is a tightly controlled environment in which you can set up microphones that have resolution and accuracy far beyond human hearing. In such an environment you can can sample any source material you care to. You can change only one variable (speaker cable) and repeat the process. You can then compare your two samples to see what, if any audible difference there is between your two different cables. Why is this not done? I prefer Occam's Razor in such cases, "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one". Loosly translated from the latin of course. Not by me of course.
I doubt it, seeing as those effects are about as relevent as gravitational changes. Come on Thorsten, apply the math, show us poor unenlightened cloth ears how any of these extra Z letters will impact what comes out of the speakers. Claiming that DA will have an effect amounts to nothing more than a outright lie if you know the impact can be calculated to be completely insignificant. Or... is completely irresponsible to rely on it if you can't calculate the effect.
When the numbers are against you, you say they don't mean anything, how droll.
By your reasoning the slew rate of BR's OTL tells us NOTHING unless we are going to listen through a 'scope.
You are right though, simple things like 1200kg, 600bhp, .9g skid pad tell me nothing about how the car handles compared to say 3000kg, 80bhp, .5g on the skidpad. For sure they don't tell me which one is best for loading all my windsurfing gear and heading for the beach, but I bet I could guess!
Chris
You never cease to amaze me with how you can continue to spout compost all the while making it smell like food.
I think the example was pretty clear, but I'll phrase it in more exact terms so you won't play little games with it.
An anechoic chamber is a tightly controlled environment in which you can set up microphones that have resolution and accuracy far beyond human hearing. In such an environment you can can sample any source material you care to. You can change only one variable (speaker cable) and repeat the process. You can then compare your two samples to see what, if any audible difference there is between your two different cables. Why is this not done? I prefer Occam's Razor in such cases, "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one". Loosly translated from the latin of course. Not by me of course.
I doubt it, seeing as those effects are about as relevent as gravitational changes. Come on Thorsten, apply the math, show us poor unenlightened cloth ears how any of these extra Z letters will impact what comes out of the speakers. Claiming that DA will have an effect amounts to nothing more than a outright lie if you know the impact can be calculated to be completely insignificant. Or... is completely irresponsible to rely on it if you can't calculate the effect.
When the numbers are against you, you say they don't mean anything, how droll.
By your reasoning the slew rate of BR's OTL tells us NOTHING unless we are going to listen through a 'scope.
You are right though, simple things like 1200kg, 600bhp, .9g skid pad tell me nothing about how the car handles compared to say 3000kg, 80bhp, .5g on the skidpad. For sure they don't tell me which one is best for loading all my windsurfing gear and heading for the beach, but I bet I could guess!
Chris
Hi all
It's been a hard day at work.
I've been reading some of the latest posts
while eating dinner, spagetti with homemade sauce ( hot )
downed with a couple of beers
With all respect to everyone, what rubbish we write
Here's the truth: all cables sound different 😉
Don't know why , they just do
cheers
It's been a hard day at work.
I've been reading some of the latest posts
while eating dinner, spagetti with homemade sauce ( hot )
downed with a couple of beers
With all respect to everyone, what rubbish we write
Here's the truth: all cables sound different 😉
Don't know why , they just do
cheers
Well, no sane person will say that cables do not make ANY difference. They will. Question is can we hear it ?
I don't doubt for one second that you are utterly convinced that you can. But try to step out from a religion (which by definition is something that we accept as truth without asking for evidence) and conduct a controlled environment experiment.
Have someone else change the cables randomly while you try to guess. Repeat this until you have enough samples to have a statistically valid result (say 20 times). Would you be prepeared to bet money that you will guess it right 20 out of 20 times ? There is in fact a prize (10,000$ if memory serves) that might just await you. It's been there for almost 5 years now, interestingly enough no golden ear has been tempted so far to collect it.
Care to guess why ? I suppose I don't have to spell out my theory on this one. 🙂
Here's the truth : you THINK you can hear differences between all cables.
It may sound harsh, but in reality, truth does that quite often.
Cheers
I don't doubt for one second that you are utterly convinced that you can. But try to step out from a religion (which by definition is something that we accept as truth without asking for evidence) and conduct a controlled environment experiment.
Have someone else change the cables randomly while you try to guess. Repeat this until you have enough samples to have a statistically valid result (say 20 times). Would you be prepeared to bet money that you will guess it right 20 out of 20 times ? There is in fact a prize (10,000$ if memory serves) that might just await you. It's been there for almost 5 years now, interestingly enough no golden ear has been tempted so far to collect it.
Care to guess why ? I suppose I don't have to spell out my theory on this one. 🙂
slowmotion said:
Here's the truth : you THINK you can hear differences between all cables.
It may sound harsh, but in reality, truth does that quite often.
Cheers
Read my post from a few pages back and you'll see that I did a test very close to that. Blind test, and 10 times out of 10, I could tell which cable (a or b) was the one hooked up.
Of course, it was only 10 times (not 20) and the cables were very different in quality. If they were both $400+ sets of cables (the challenge you spoke of is at least of this level, I'm sure), it's damn unlikely I would have noticed. All I know is on that day, in that room, with my ears, I was able to identify which cable was in use. It convinced me to buy a better set of cables, but then again, I was starting from crappy ones. If I got better ones starting from the cables I have now, I don't think I could tell the difference, necessarily.
Of course, it was only 10 times (not 20) and the cables were very different in quality. If they were both $400+ sets of cables (the challenge you spoke of is at least of this level, I'm sure), it's damn unlikely I would have noticed. All I know is on that day, in that room, with my ears, I was able to identify which cable was in use. It convinced me to buy a better set of cables, but then again, I was starting from crappy ones. If I got better ones starting from the cables I have now, I don't think I could tell the difference, necessarily.
LOGIC HAS IT...
Hi,
Great sentence...
Now 'splain to the audience please how something that makes a difference will be inaudible at the same time.
A guess just won't cut it.You either perceive a difference or you don't.
When in doubt...well you should know the rest of that.
Please, do tell..after all 10.000$ isn't peanuts.
Could it be that YOU don't want to hear any differences between cables?
Or, to make the coin drop, how different cables interact differently with different speakers?
And no, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why.
Cheers, 😉
\This pig loves to wrestle in the mud.
Hi,
Great sentence...
Now 'splain to the audience please how something that makes a difference will be inaudible at the same time.
A guess just won't cut it.You either perceive a difference or you don't.
When in doubt...well you should know the rest of that.
Please, do tell..after all 10.000$ isn't peanuts.
Could it be that YOU don't want to hear any differences between cables?
Or, to make the coin drop, how different cables interact differently with different speakers?
And no, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why.
Cheers, 😉
\This pig loves to wrestle in the mud.
Re: More meaningless babble?
Konnichiwa,
Much irelevant stuff snipped
Let me say in the simplest way - suit yourself.
I have said my piece. If you don't want to pay attention - what is it to me?
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
Christopher said:
Much irelevant stuff snipped
Let me say in the simplest way - suit yourself.
I have said my piece. If you don't want to pay attention - what is it to me?
Sayonara
Hi,
ROTFLMAO.
That's a good one....surely our local cartoonist can add an appropriate piccie.
Granmaster Jam, it's all yours,😉
ROTFLMAO.
That's a good one....surely our local cartoonist can add an appropriate piccie.
Granmaster Jam, it's all yours,😉
Magnetostriciton har har!
Actually it's better for you when I don't pay attention, on the first pass I missed magnetostriction. Did you type that with a straight face? Your reputation as a theorist is completely shot to hell with me if you hold that magnetostriction in a simple speaker cable could possibly affect the sound out of the speakers.
But go ahead, I'm willing to learn, enlighten the masses with how this could possibly justify changing speaker cables, or better still how you propose to design around such an evil. I've heard that you can't have good control of magnetostriction without making the cable vulnerable to nutrino bombardment effects. Holy cow Thorsten! Returning to orders of magnitude, what would be the ratio of magnetostriction effects in the OPT of a tube amp, to that in the speaker cables?
Actually, that's why I built that horribly designed OTL, bad slew rates and all, I just couldn't stand the magnetostriction distortion in a regular transformer coupled amp.
Magnetostriction, really? Really? Come on, really? Relevant primarily for Speaker Cables? Really?
But you've said your piece I guess, ok whatever.
Hey Frank, just in case SY wasn't blunt enough, try this, turn the volume up to 8 or so (mine really does go to 11 he he) Put on your favorite audiophile whatever, and flick a booger off the faceplate of your amp.
All I need to know from you is an honest response, do you hear the booger hit the faceplate?
After that I'll explain why I ask, promise.
Chris
Actually it's better for you when I don't pay attention, on the first pass I missed magnetostriction. Did you type that with a straight face? Your reputation as a theorist is completely shot to hell with me if you hold that magnetostriction in a simple speaker cable could possibly affect the sound out of the speakers.
But go ahead, I'm willing to learn, enlighten the masses with how this could possibly justify changing speaker cables, or better still how you propose to design around such an evil. I've heard that you can't have good control of magnetostriction without making the cable vulnerable to nutrino bombardment effects. Holy cow Thorsten! Returning to orders of magnitude, what would be the ratio of magnetostriction effects in the OPT of a tube amp, to that in the speaker cables?
Actually, that's why I built that horribly designed OTL, bad slew rates and all, I just couldn't stand the magnetostriction distortion in a regular transformer coupled amp.
Magnetostriction, really? Really? Come on, really? Relevant primarily for Speaker Cables? Really?
But you've said your piece I guess, ok whatever.
Hey Frank, just in case SY wasn't blunt enough, try this, turn the volume up to 8 or so (mine really does go to 11 he he) Put on your favorite audiophile whatever, and flick a booger off the faceplate of your amp.
All I need to know from you is an honest response, do you hear the booger hit the faceplate?
After that I'll explain why I ask, promise.
Chris
Hi,
Hurt egos need shrinks...guess you still didn't get my blunt hints either?
From your response I can only conclude that you didn't do the test I suggested...understandably so.
Mind you I wouldn't touch an amp from someone claiming x-over notch distortion doesn't exist either.
What are you youngsters on nowadays?
Cheers, 😉
\One day I will build that Class Z amp, promise.
Hurt egos need shrinks...guess you still didn't get my blunt hints either?
From your response I can only conclude that you didn't do the test I suggested...understandably so.
Mind you I wouldn't touch an amp from someone claiming x-over notch distortion doesn't exist either.
What are you youngsters on nowadays?
Cheers, 😉
\One day I will build that Class Z amp, promise.
Though provocative, it's a reasonable test. I'll give you an easier one, if dried mucous is in short supply (though with all that mayo, one would think...): Run a 20kHz tone through your speakers at 10 dBA at one meter. Go back to your listening chair (I assume you're not living in an anechoic chamber). I'll wager that you won't hear the tone, unless you're a lot younger than I think. Maybe not even then.
But give me a decent test mike at that position and I'll have no problem measuring it.
But give me a decent test mike at that position and I'll have no problem measuring it.
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