You didnt answer the question 😉
"I still would like to know if you believe that seeing the cables swapped, seeing the brand names, price tags, your expressions has an important influence on the listeners conclusions?"
Yes or No is okay to answer.
btw, I added "your expressions" because that is also very important...it a very strong suggestive marker in any sales pitch. Sales 101 would tell you that 😉
That's a bit unfair, I've taken back many cables and not one salesmen have ever said anything about it. In fact, not one salesmen ever tried to sell cables to me without me asking.
Fine, STRONG anecdotal evidence.
You are in the camp with the small group that belives there isnt much outside influence on conclusions from experiences (listening, etc)?
How can it all be ignored?
Well, many cables do improve SQ. It is also still your choice if you want to pay that price.
Who is going to decide which cables work best on which system? Do you expect the breakfast cereal manufacturers to feed you too? 🙂
On the same order of strength as many listening tests you dismiss.
No i am not. I am realistic about what kind of objective & subjective testing capabilities most of us really have.
dave
I hope that many of you, out there, perhaps in a remote location, have a somewhat better understanding of how real hi fi sales are conducted, rather than the dim view that many here express, perhaps without much experience.
I was once an 'audio salesman' back 45 years ago, and we sold top brands of the day. Wire was NOT much of a concern, then. Just 16ga Zip cord that we bought on a roll, from the hardware store, and a robust shielded coax cable made by Switchcraft in various lengths. It was grey in color, sometimes black cables were used, with tinned pressed metal RCA connectors attached with some sort of strain relief.
In those days, these cables seemed to fill the bill and they matched well with the RCA connectors that we plugged them into.
It was a long process, to learn the advantages of better shielding, lower capacitance, gold plating, etc. It did NOT come, overnight, and it took a lot of effort, that I have not seen yet on this thread, to put even that much together. The exotic materials, insulators, and even exotic geometries still elude me, but I am willing to learn about them, if given a chance.
However, the final test is in the listening. Even if I can hear a difference, I often cannot afford it. This goes for line cords, interconnects, and speaker wire.
I was once an 'audio salesman' back 45 years ago, and we sold top brands of the day. Wire was NOT much of a concern, then. Just 16ga Zip cord that we bought on a roll, from the hardware store, and a robust shielded coax cable made by Switchcraft in various lengths. It was grey in color, sometimes black cables were used, with tinned pressed metal RCA connectors attached with some sort of strain relief.
In those days, these cables seemed to fill the bill and they matched well with the RCA connectors that we plugged them into.
It was a long process, to learn the advantages of better shielding, lower capacitance, gold plating, etc. It did NOT come, overnight, and it took a lot of effort, that I have not seen yet on this thread, to put even that much together. The exotic materials, insulators, and even exotic geometries still elude me, but I am willing to learn about them, if given a chance.
However, the final test is in the listening. Even if I can hear a difference, I often cannot afford it. This goes for line cords, interconnects, and speaker wire.
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They are test to help families decide which is healthiest for them. You do realize lots of people buy cereal for the nutrition they ACTUALLY provide, which is tested and scurtinized far beyond anything in Audio.
Anytime anything is scurtinized in audio, you get similar characters like yourselves calling everyone else "Deaf" or "having Untrained Ears". Its the same old trick and its too bad there isnt checks and balances in this industry.
Its actually sad that many pushing the same old "Just listen" wont go and measure and do the proper controlled tests themselves.
I have done it all ways possible (just listening, proper testing, measuring as much as I can and learning) because Im honest to the hobby. I can only conclude that people here are not truely honest to the hobby.
John Curl measured distortion in RG 174 coaxial cabel as a "negative reference" a couple of years ago. This cable is magnetic (copperclad iron, lots of microdiodes?) but in my ears satisfactory in SQ. Was the distortion spectrum ever published?
Very valid point. The amplifiers that I used as examples are indeed fairly low power. As more high powered example, let me describe my Nd-YAG laser hard wired into a dedicated 240V circuit (I have 3 X 30A fuses in the back of the instrument, so run some quick math and let me know if this is high powered enough for you). Though this obviously doesn't use a high sensitivity amplifier to detect signals, it can reliably product 7 ns pulses (FWHM for those who care) with < 1 ns jitter. Still, no exotic power cords, just lots of thick copper. Internal wiring is all multi-stranded copper (no idea the insulation) and lots of shielding for the high sensitivity timing components.
No silver, no rhodium, just gold plated contacts.
The counterargument that you don't address is that power cables do nothing to filter mains interference or noise that cannot be more easily and inexpensively addressed with filters on the power connection jack in the chassis. There are well established methods for eliminating incoming noise on AC power, but rather than implement these techniques, people sometimes go for crazy $2K power cables! I just don't get it. If you are really worried, why not hard wire Romex directly into your amp PSU? Everybody uses Romex to carry AC to their equipment, right? I haven't heard anybody re-wiring their house with silver in-wall power cable! (Aluminum, on the other hand. . . .)
Ah! And now we return to the truth of the matter! For this argument, I certainly have no logical or scientific response! 😀
About the RG174. I am not sure about when I made that test. I did measure differences but they did not appear to be from the magnetic component, primarily. I dropped doing these tests, because they were so hard to do, and while repeatable at any short period of time (let's say a week or so) they were not always consistent over years of time. I attribute this to 'break-in' others would attribute it to marginal testing conditions. SY once saw me make measurements, and he saw differences, but he was not impressed.
As I do not get paid for being ridiculed for even attempting to test for cable differences, I decided to drop it, until further notice.
As I do not get paid for being ridiculed for even attempting to test for cable differences, I decided to drop it, until further notice.
Bruno Putzeys did measurements on some copperclad cable made by Dan Banquer several years ago. His Audio Precision System Two Cascade was measuring a good 20dB below John's measurements and there were no signs of distortion.
se
The screen shots of distortion analysis of cables you showed were very exiting. They seemed to support some of the listening experiences I have had myself with cables.
I suppose you made your data using an analog system. As I remember, a european colleague of yours could not reproduce your data using a digita system. I wonder if signal averaging (100X) works well in an all-analog analysis (which can, in theory, cope with infinitely small signal variations), whereas the distortion signals are below the detection threshold in the digital system in each of the 100 measurements and thus do not appear after averaging the 100 measurements.
E.g. perhaps the distortion represents 0.4 bits repeatedly and thus is represented as 0 in every one of the 100 measurements.
When looking at the Audio Precision graphs, the almost complete lack of noise is impressive - or is it? Does the lack of small signals rather show that the digital data aquisition and analysis is a crude representation of the real world.
PS: I am not an engineer, just a plain hifi enthusiast. If my proposal is utter rubbish, let me know.
I suppose you made your data using an analog system. As I remember, a european colleague of yours could not reproduce your data using a digita system. I wonder if signal averaging (100X) works well in an all-analog analysis (which can, in theory, cope with infinitely small signal variations), whereas the distortion signals are below the detection threshold in the digital system in each of the 100 measurements and thus do not appear after averaging the 100 measurements.
E.g. perhaps the distortion represents 0.4 bits repeatedly and thus is represented as 0 in every one of the 100 measurements.
When looking at the Audio Precision graphs, the almost complete lack of noise is impressive - or is it? Does the lack of small signals rather show that the digital data aquisition and analysis is a crude representation of the real world.
PS: I am not an engineer, just a plain hifi enthusiast. If my proposal is utter rubbish, let me know.
There are different levels of listening, just like there are different kinds of driving (automobile). Some listen all day with an Ipod, and are happy. Others just would not own an Ipod (me) because the musical source usually annoys them as much as gives them something to listen to.
I discussed this very topic with a lady, just last night. She is an Ipod person, her sister listens to a Bose setup, and seems very happy. I don't do either, and I mentioned to her that I don't even listen to my favorite music still on FM radio, because it is so 'compromised'.
This is just like someone who puts many 1000's of miles per year commuting, or whatever, in a cheap car. If it gets them there, they are happy enough. Others, if they can, will buy a Mercedes to do the same miles, not just for prestige, but for the comfort and engineering that the Mercedes provides.
I discussed this very topic with a lady, just last night. She is an Ipod person, her sister listens to a Bose setup, and seems very happy. I don't do either, and I mentioned to her that I don't even listen to my favorite music still on FM radio, because it is so 'compromised'.
This is just like someone who puts many 1000's of miles per year commuting, or whatever, in a cheap car. If it gets them there, they are happy enough. Others, if they can, will buy a Mercedes to do the same miles, not just for prestige, but for the comfort and engineering that the Mercedes provides.
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Don't equate to me owning any Ipod to that fact that I do not have a setup (I have over $50K in electronics in my house) or that I do not like accuracy (I like to measure and design my setup for accuracy as much as possible). I like simple stuff sometimes too and easy of use, also when you have a baby in the house sometimes silence is more important that anal needs 😉
btw, They buy the Mercedes for the prestige and for the misconception it is designed better. I know I live in the $1 million neighborhood 😉 and I have been to EVERY auto manufacturer in the world doing distribution supply change management. I can say the manufacturer processes are very similar. The Japanese and the Germans definitely out build the Americans though.
Misconception? I think not. It is just that some people are more tolerant of junk (sound, cars, or food) than others. There is nothing wrong with this. Some people, like the lady upstairs with the Bose, eats very often at Chez Panisse at great cost to the pocketbook. It is where she wants to put her extra income.
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No, its a manufacturing POV and the laws of diminished returns.
Again, you are preaching subjectivity (your true colors showed up in that post 😱). It doesnt fly in the real world from those who have travelled, who can buy them and know the truth.
Next you will argue that the $2K tires on the expensive cars are superior to the $200 to $500 choices 😱 or that the real expensive leather is better to sit on or the real wood makes the car ride better then fake stuff. Its all about the finer things but it has actually nothing to do with performance itself because "finer" does not equal increased performance.
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