Not so much as you think. The Robertson unit was not cheap, but it didn't cost any more than, say, a Dynavector Diamond with a high quality step-up. The problem was the innate conservatism of the high end market; selling something truly new is a tough deal in a fashion business. Sao Win, one of the most innovative designers ever, tried the same thing with no success. Stunning reviews, great product, but he couldn't get dealers interested enough to sell them.
See, that's the beauty of diy- if someone (like me) thinks that the way things are done is not right or not optimal, no worries about commercial viability or industry standards, Just Do It.
I have heard both the Win and the Robertson in the day. They were unique and were as fast or even faster in dynamic attack as any MC, but they just were mixed bag in terms of overall sound. I am sure that this was a product of the supporting electronics, but they were not on the same plane as the best MC in terms of musicality. People did not mind spending money, if they heard the results that they wanted. Especially in the 70's-80's when both of the strain gauges that you are referring to were at their market peak. The market dictates what sells, as if one dealer will not carry something, another one will if there is a market for it.
Well sure, its not hard to think of a few others. The fact is these fractional dB thresholds of audibility have only been demonstrated under strictly controlled conditions that have little in common with a typical HiFi listening environment or listening experience.
Anyway, it’s worth noting that that brilliant line of skientifik exploration in to why a couple of cables must sound so different has been conveniently dropped like a hot potato.
What are we talking about now? Cheap consumer gear? TV's? HiFi salesmen? fly fishing?
GK,
Maybe your idea of a typical "hi-fi" system is not the norm. Maybe there is something else out there that you are not intimately familiar with on a daily basis. I am not saying that we are talking about day and night differences here, but once heard, they are big, when they are not available to the listener, as they have come to expect these "little differences" as part of their musical enjoyment.
The real question is whether one can trust oneself to hear differences. If you think you can, and others think you can, you probably can.
The Debye paper was written by someone who is trying to piece together the listening and research of audio professionals into something that might be considered, as it fits the FACTS as far as our audio listening experience is concerned. I certainly never would have thought of it, but it fits the listening experience model.
Of course, physics marches on. That is why we now have room temperature Cooper pairs appearing in Graphene, etc. I was told that was impossible.
The Debye paper was written by someone who is trying to piece together the listening and research of audio professionals into something that might be considered, as it fits the FACTS as far as our audio listening experience is concerned. I certainly never would have thought of it, but it fits the listening experience model.
Of course, physics marches on. That is why we now have room temperature Cooper pairs appearing in Graphene, etc. I was told that was impossible.
That paper is crank stuff, John, and I think you know more than enough physics to see that. In the words of Pauli, "It's not even wrong." People who don't know what a phonon is, don't understand specific heat, don't understand the physical significance of Debye temperature, and don't know the difference between AM and FM should be spending their time learning rather than expounding their ignorance.
Still, the model fits the 'facts', rather than ignoring the 'facts' as the product of people's imaginations. This is where we differ.
"Facts" and "unsupported claims and rumors" are not exactly the same thing. As both a person trained in physics and someone living in Berkeley, you would certainly know that.😀
Well sure, its not hard to think of a few others. The fact is these fractional dB thresholds of audibility have only been demonstrated under strictly controlled conditions that have little in common with a typical HiFi listening environment or listening experience.
Anyway, it’s worth noting that that brilliant line of skientifik exploration in to why a couple of cables must sound so different has been conveniently dropped like a hot potato.
What are we talking about now? Cheap consumer gear? TV's? HiFi salesmen? fly fishing?[/QUOTE]
GK is totally right in telling us that we must define the situations and systems...................and I can foresee exactly what would happen if that were to occur!!🙂
Unless we have some really worthwhile scientific input to disprove that there are differences in sound between cables or, on the other hand, to prove why such differences exist, then this thread is totally fated to be yet another fun but ridiculous waste of time and effort!
Having just returned from a couple of weeks stuck in a wilderness known as the Outer Hebrides - some 3 hours by ferry out in the Atlantic fly-fishing for salmon, I am glad that this thread has widened to the absurd (nearly as absurd as fishing this year!🙄😡), but appears to get absolutely nowhere beyond the: "...yes, I can hear a difference in cables" and the: "no you cant - because I cant": along with "....because 'science' does not allow for such differences".
Does it matter? We all now know at least where we stand from a subjective experience (balanced by thickness of wallet) viewpoint. The barrel has been scraped clean of any worthwhile substance by both sides! Yet round and round it goes
My spin is that John Curl has made the most aptly succinct post on this. Sy, as the leader of the opposing camp Bless him, is at present doing anything but strengthening the scientific case. Come on SY, lets get back to explaining the differences which others hear. Pick up the hot potatoe and run with it.....
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My philosophical question😀 is:
If the individual and his mood are a big part of music's many times mystagogical listening experience for no real scientific but psychological reasons, isnt it normal that there is a market to keep the individual secure? I mean beyond claims, isn't psychedelic mutation of natural senses walking hand in hand with almost all human cultures since the dawn of man?😎
If the individual and his mood are a big part of music's many times mystagogical listening experience for no real scientific but psychological reasons, isnt it normal that there is a market to keep the individual secure? I mean beyond claims, isn't psychedelic mutation of natural senses walking hand in hand with almost all human cultures since the dawn of man?😎
That's what companies like Pfitzer has figured 😀
ZOLOFT (sertraline HCl) | Pfizer: the world's largest research-based pharmaceutical company
Magura 🙂
Is this your way of trying to appease yourself, as you do not allow your self to hear what is going on your own system and become familiar enough with it to know when things change?
Mood has nothing to do with this argument. It has been proven to me and others over extended periods of time. I am thankful that I am not jaded by obvious bias, based upon what science tells me I am supposed to hear, even when I do. If I hear it over and over again and if someone else hears it too, then I am never going to consider that I am anything but correct. Simple as that.
Voodoo to many of you, but obvious to many more like me. We simple live in parallel universes. One side loves music and its emotional connection, the other lives to solve problems and build the "prefect machine", with obvious disregard for the sonic truth. Meters and scopes were not equipped with ears or a brain. I believe that was for a reason too.
Well it also ensures that the measurement crowd has a means to make themselves feel secure that they have created the perfect beast that will satisfy all, because it has zero distortion, "it must sound wonderful" 🙂 How would any of you sleep at night without a meter or scope to fall asleep too 😀
Tektronix seems to be the pill of choice for your crowd too 🙂 How do these things sound? Impressive I imagine!
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