I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

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#5,361
janneman said:
Yes there is stress, I know. But if you are listening at home when swapping for instance cables, aren't you also trying to listen to differences? Is the difference in the two situations so big that now all of a sudden you can no longer hear the differences in cables?
jd
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At home there are hopefully 🙂 no stress. It is quite easy, even in sighted comparisons, to get caught up in concentrating to find differences rather than relax and experience the whole 'picture' and emotion of the music, this make it much easier to detect differences.
 
#5,362
Andre Visser said:
[snip]If a DBT can't show a difference between these, then there is something seriously wrong with the test or the listeners chosen doesn't have a clue what a good hi-fi (or good music for that matter) sound like.
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Why? Why can't these amps have inaudible differences? Are you aware, for example, Bob' Cordell's demo at RMAF 06 I think, where listeners were very hard pressed to hear any difference between a 35WPC tube amp and a 60WPC SS amp, UNLESS they were clipping? Where does your strong, unwavering conviction come from?

jd
 
#5,363
janneman said:
OK, I get your point. I may have been guilty.
Anyway, that Meyer test is rather extreme in the stress department, no?
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Don't know, I've read a few similar (really stretching memory here) going as far back as the introduction of the 741 and IEEE challenges to hear 10/12 in series. Of course that doesn't negate all tests.
 
#5,364
contortions of the mis-informed

This is amusing... twisted interpretations of standard statistical & experimental protocols and their (supposed) limitations due to 1) poor design 2) lousy implementation 3) actually valid null results when properly performed to somehow prove that even a zombie can hear differences in cables under casual experiences and that such anecdotes are of greater value to the neophyte than said protocols being dismissed....

truly amusing (and incredibly naive')

John L.
 
#5,367
janneman said:
Why? Why can't these amps have inaudible differences? Are you aware, for example, Bob' Cordell's demo at RMAF 06 I think, where listeners were very hard pressed to hear any difference between a 35WPC tube amp and a 60WPC SS amp, UNLESS they were clipping? Where does your strong, unwavering conviction come from?

jd
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Jan I still have to find a multichannel receiver that is not compromised in some way. Apart from that, I would like to find, let alone compare two different amps that measure the same, while driving a real load. I can't even think of two amps from different manufacturers that sound similar.

I guess it is possible to degrade a SS amp to sound like a tube amp, I just don't see the reason for doing it. 😀
 
#5,368
Multi-tone tests

Been working with the multi-tones a bit today.

A word of warning. Be careful of resampling! If your software/harware does not do 44.1Khz, then you should not use the file I posted. If the OS resamples it, it's a mess.

I will post some 48K files tonight, for easier use with standard drivers.
 
#5,369
Hi,

janneman said:



No, no! You/I/we can't help it! We're wired to react in a certain way to suggestions whether we want it or not. For example, you can be very aware of any advertising (it's pretty impossible NOT to), and tell yourself they're not going to get you, but still it influences your purchasing decisions.

jd
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Jan, I'm sure you all posted this before.

It's pretty basic psychology that's served to just about anyone in the first year they join university.

Point is, you're missing my point which all in all is OT and not important anyway.

No offence intended. I can very well see why you'd bring psychology into this thread but it doesn't render one deaf or brainless overnight either....

Cheers, 😉
 
#5,370
Hi,

janneman said:



Ahhh but that's the point. NOBODY says that they sound the same. What is said is: "show me". Show me a repeatable, controlled test that shows they sound different and that's it.
I know amps can sound different, I've heard it often myself. Was it repeatable and controlled? No. So I shut up.

Andre, I make come across as angry but I am not. Only excited 😉

jd
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Surely, Jan, all amps that measure the same should sound the same?

I am well aware that that's not what you said but do two amps that measure the same sound the same?
If so, how would you know other than listening?

And, more importantly, how does your listening experience constitute any proof to those that say it should sound the same?

Keeping on moving the goalposts won't result in a score, you know.

Cheers, 😉
 
#5,374
Hi,

While the laws of nature can often be used to form an inductive proof (strictly spoken mathematics is the only science able to give formal proof within an axiomatic system, while the rest is more or less based on probability),
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@Jacob2:

Careful with the use of the word axiom.
It is not as self-evident as you seem to think it is.

Cheers, 😉
 
#5,376
Re: Multi-tone tests

Hi,

panomaniac said:
Been working with the multi-tones a bit today.

A word of warning. Be careful of resampling! If your software/harware does not do 44.1Khz, then you should not use the file I posted. If the OS resamples it, it's a mess.

I will post some 48K files tonight, for easier use with standard drivers.
Click to expand...


That, my friend, was very much predictable.


Cheers, 😉
 
#5,377
Well it doesn't show up much with sine waves or sawtooth. But it makes a mess out of the multitone stuff.

But it's easy enough to run it all at 48KHz, so no worries.
If I had software that would record via ASIO, that would be better. Playback is not a problem.

EDIT: here is the signal straight and resampled. Resampling from 44.1KHz to 48KHz done in software. Looks worse when windows does it on the fly.
 

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#5,378
panomaniac said:
Well it doesn't show up much with sine waves or sawtooth. But it makes a mess out of the multitone stuff.

But it's easy enough to run it all at 48KHz, so no worries.
If I had software that would record via ASIO, that would be better. Playback is not a problem.

EDIT: here is the signal straight and resampled. Resampling from 44.1KHz to 48KHz done in software. Looks worse when windows does it on the fly.
Click to expand...

I use a full duplex external ASIO device. There are lots of problems in keeping control of every detail so that you are actually measuring what you think you are. I have followed some blogs of driver developers and it appears Vista is a total pain even for people who live and breathe this nerdy stuff.

Remember it was 16/44.1 so you could do a direct CD burn with no resampling. I was trying to help folks who get burnt by Windows resampling in the backround.
 
#5,380
The basic period of the waveform is 65536/44100 seconds and the closest freqeuncy to the ISO standards that has an exact integral number of periods in that time is selected. I used the ISO standard that set 1000Hz as an exact value and worked away from that in both directions in powers of 1/3. The underlying data has a noise floor of -160dB (.wav only supports single precision FP). No resampling can be tolerated without degradation unless it is full double precision FP in time and amplitude.
 
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