Darwin investigated the transmutation of species and conceived his theory of natural selection in 1838.[7] Although he discussed his ideas with several naturalists, he needed time for extensive research and his geological work had priority.[8] He was writing up his theory in 1858 when Alfred Russel Wallace sent him an essay which described the same idea, prompting immediate joint publication of both of their theories.[9]
His 1859 book On the Origin of Species established evolutionary descent with modification as the scientific explanation of diversification in nature.[3]
In recognition of Darwin’s pre-eminence, he was one of only five 19th-century UK non-royal personages to be honoured by a state funeral,[11] and was buried in Westminster Abbey, close to John Herschel and Isaac Newton.[12]
Sy, you wrote
Would you expand your comment a bit please? If nothing else, what is classical E&M? S&M I get already.
Bud
Would you expand your comment a bit please? If nothing else, what is classical E&M? S&M I get already.
Bud
SY said:
Exactly. Once you see it - or hear it - it often becomes obvious. I used to see that in fine art printing all the time. We would have a match print and a proof up on the board for evaluation. Customers would come in the shop and say "they look exactly alike to me." But as soon as we pointed out the little differences, they had no trouble seeing them. The original artist rarely had trouble, either.
If differences do exist in cables, knowing what they are should really help in any A/B test. The differences should be much easier to reliably detect. If they don't exist, well - they don't exist.
fdegrove said:
That's good. For me Bud is like William Faulkner. I read Faulkner once and get only the words. It takes a second reading to get the meaning. With Bud it takes me even longer. =)
panomaniac said:
That seems an interesting variant on DB testing. First take enough time until you are sure you can hear the differences between cables, after they are pointed out and agreed.
Then go to a blind controlled test and see if the differences can still be heard by sound alone.
jd
testing 101 vs. opinion 1000
seems to me this should be part of the experimental design phase (often ignored in naive testing) wherein you perform prescreening tests to discern what variables you're attempting to control, then set criteria for accepting the null or alternative, test the criteria, then proceed with final trials (as defined by the design level and confidence interval)
The lay public (those who've never been educated in experimental design, value analysis, multivariate techniques, etc.) don't have the knowledge or resources to actually determine validity of hypotheses (like competently built cables sound different, for instance) so all of the pages in this thread are simply opinions based on individual anecdotal evidence at best, or pure speculation...
maybe someone should do a meta-analysis of all the USENET threads, forum threads, etc. over the decades on this subject and see what comes out, eh??
😉
John L.
janneman said:
seems to me this should be part of the experimental design phase (often ignored in naive testing) wherein you perform prescreening tests to discern what variables you're attempting to control, then set criteria for accepting the null or alternative, test the criteria, then proceed with final trials (as defined by the design level and confidence interval)
The lay public (those who've never been educated in experimental design, value analysis, multivariate techniques, etc.) don't have the knowledge or resources to actually determine validity of hypotheses (like competently built cables sound different, for instance) so all of the pages in this thread are simply opinions based on individual anecdotal evidence at best, or pure speculation...
maybe someone should do a meta-analysis of all the USENET threads, forum threads, etc. over the decades on this subject and see what comes out, eh??
😉
John L.
I've been more on the M side in this thread.😀
"Classical E&M" is the familiar stuff of Maxwell's equations. It takes no notice of exotic creatures like Cooper pairs, solitons, polarons, Brillouin zones, and all the other stuff of modern physics. However, it is more than capable of handling the issues of connecting a pair of speakers.
OT question, perhaps best asked elsewhere: are you familiar with fractal antennas? I suspect you know why i would ask that...
mmmhmmm, know of any documents aimed at the woolly minded?
Google Sam Purvine at your leisure. My son. His take on that subject was pretty interesting, thought it might show indeterminacy being influenced by a macro "viewer" that provided a lower loss, stable storage.
Just wanted to make sure I was up to speed on the new pre-value for M, thanks
Bud
I have a copy of an excellent review paper. I'll send you a reference when I get home tonight. Heavy slogging, but there's some interesting clues in there, and even an amateur like me was able to extract the basic points.
rdf said:
LOL. Yes. However brief it might be.
janneman said:
IMO that is going to be the hard part. How to know what they are, if they exist.
I have had sonic differences pointed out to me that then became easy to identify, but if you had put me in a blind test before that, I'm not sure I could have passed. But then we are back to "who will piont them out?" Perhaps the person who believes the cables are different. ? Not going to be easy....
At the risk of spreading more wool over the clean clear mental processes of all of you short sentence freaks, the differences I found had little to do with "gross" measures of sonic characteristic.
What I found as I added shrink tubing to the Litz wire, sounded like a slowing down of all information, just a small amount, so that I could comprehend more of the internal structure of that information. I do not think there was anything added to the sounds, to make them "better". Just this odd stretch in time, which did get to be a noticeable smear, when I crossed that threshold of too much of a material with a dielectric constant of 2.4, when applied to the huge surface area of the Litz. This effect was audible with the single strand cable, but only because I was listening for it. Going in blind, without a clue to what I was looking for, I am sure I would have been hard pressed. For what it is worth, these cables were all oxygen free, four nines copper coil winding wire from Essex and Wirenetics, with a "single" depth coat of Poly Ester / Nylon insulation over the copper strands.
Some of the other, higher dielectric constant materials, actually sounded as though there was a resonant peak involved in there alteration of sound, compared to the bare, coated, Litz wire. The multi-layered, stacked materials, also had different amplitude related time stretches, much like the sound of bending a guitar string, but not in that long a time frame.
Bud
What I found as I added shrink tubing to the Litz wire, sounded like a slowing down of all information, just a small amount, so that I could comprehend more of the internal structure of that information. I do not think there was anything added to the sounds, to make them "better". Just this odd stretch in time, which did get to be a noticeable smear, when I crossed that threshold of too much of a material with a dielectric constant of 2.4, when applied to the huge surface area of the Litz. This effect was audible with the single strand cable, but only because I was listening for it. Going in blind, without a clue to what I was looking for, I am sure I would have been hard pressed. For what it is worth, these cables were all oxygen free, four nines copper coil winding wire from Essex and Wirenetics, with a "single" depth coat of Poly Ester / Nylon insulation over the copper strands.
Some of the other, higher dielectric constant materials, actually sounded as though there was a resonant peak involved in there alteration of sound, compared to the bare, coated, Litz wire. The multi-layered, stacked materials, also had different amplitude related time stretches, much like the sound of bending a guitar string, but not in that long a time frame.
Bud
Phenolic is another good insulation material you would like 😉
Its used in DCA graphite resistors for a reason
And in any number of vintage tube audio things
And other "modern" stuff like cheap pots
Some new audiophile tube sockets
Maybe some day soon we can get it used in IC connectors as well
I wouldnt think of using anything else for mounting backplate on my amps
Phenolic boards might also be nice for simpler hardwired amps
I could also suggest backelite mains connectors, but I wont
Its used in DCA graphite resistors for a reason
And in any number of vintage tube audio things
And other "modern" stuff like cheap pots
Some new audiophile tube sockets
Maybe some day soon we can get it used in IC connectors as well
I wouldnt think of using anything else for mounting backplate on my amps
Phenolic boards might also be nice for simpler hardwired amps
I could also suggest backelite mains connectors, but I wont
panomaniac said:
I know what you mean here and you can make a comparison to audio but ......
In audio someone may point out some little sound that you didn't notice before. If this happens at the time that someone inserts a new cable into your system, it is logical to assume it's the new cable doing it, and that may or may not be the case. This has happened to me many times, but I have found that once this new insight is heard I can still hear it without the new component. It may not jump out so much but it is still there, and even there on a lesser system.
Then there is the "more musical" "more emotionally involving" difference which is not something you hear as much as feel, and again there is an assumption that your new feelings are caused by the system's sound, having changed, which again may or may not be the case.
Back to fine art printing, when an a unoticed difference is pointed out it is a real physical difference, and it would still be noticeable through less than perfectly transparent glass.
But if a person is presented with two identical prints and says, 'this print affects me emotionally but that one leaves me cold,' what can you do, give them a blind test?
Hi,
It sounds to me that what you're describing are subtle time delays, phase shifts.
Way back when I was designing cables I could just about ask anything from Phelps-Dodge (formerly Hudson International) in the way of wires or insulation materials*
Luckily we had help from an assistant (now professor) at the Institute for Material Research close to Hasselt who volunteered to do some research for us.
Point being, his findings were similar to Hawksfords' theory but went further, way beyond the audio field as he also did extend his work to ESA.
To cut a long story short, I see you, perhaps instinctively, going in the right direction and aplaud you for that.
I already see the measurement mob knocking at my door but I won't budge.
Let them do their own homework for a change.
Asked for proof I'll show them "le doigt d'honneur". Period.
Cheers, 😉
*Bar anything too exotic such as silk, cotton or any other organic insulator.
BudP said:
It sounds to me that what you're describing are subtle time delays, phase shifts.
Way back when I was designing cables I could just about ask anything from Phelps-Dodge (formerly Hudson International) in the way of wires or insulation materials*
Luckily we had help from an assistant (now professor) at the Institute for Material Research close to Hasselt who volunteered to do some research for us.
Point being, his findings were similar to Hawksfords' theory but went further, way beyond the audio field as he also did extend his work to ESA.
To cut a long story short, I see you, perhaps instinctively, going in the right direction and aplaud you for that.
I already see the measurement mob knocking at my door but I won't budge.
Let them do their own homework for a change.
Asked for proof I'll show them "le doigt d'honneur". Period.
Cheers, 😉
*Bar anything too exotic such as silk, cotton or any other organic insulator.
Hi,
Thank you for for your reply.
If you go through the formulae Hawksford presents then, yes, under certain conditions the current would travel on the edge of the wire without even penetrating the conductor.
Hence my question, what about the permittivity of the dielectric and how that will affect propagation of the signal within a properly terminated transmission line?
IOW, how much will the chosen dielectrum get polarized and is polarisation of this a welcome effect or not?
IOOW does the degree of polarisation of the dielectrum matter and if yes is a zero degree (or close) of polarisation beneficial?
When I said look at the role of C in the transmission line I bloody well meant it. Nugh said.
Cheers, 😉
janneman said:
Thank you for for your reply.
If you go through the formulae Hawksford presents then, yes, under certain conditions the current would travel on the edge of the wire without even penetrating the conductor.
Hence my question, what about the permittivity of the dielectric and how that will affect propagation of the signal within a properly terminated transmission line?
IOW, how much will the chosen dielectrum get polarized and is polarisation of this a welcome effect or not?
IOOW does the degree of polarisation of the dielectrum matter and if yes is a zero degree (or close) of polarisation beneficial?
When I said look at the role of C in the transmission line I bloody well meant it. Nugh said.
Cheers, 😉
This is an extremely important question, from my perspective as an audio transformer designer. I currently have our coils built utilizing different dielectrics in different portions of the coil. All secondaries comprised of single layers of wire, paralleled and then series connected to obtain he correct turns for various impedance matches.
I think of this differing dielectric, with the one out in the primary coil wire being twice what it is across the antenna barrier dielectric from primary to secondary, as acting like a lens. The lens effect being that there comes to be a greater number of signaling electrons, on either side of the antenna barriers, on the wire surfaces, that are being held in place through some form of either polarization or domain dispersal in the dielectric material adjacent to the wires.
Regardless of how clumsy this postulation is, the activity of the transformer for the first 40 hours of it's operational life suggests something unusual is going on. In a stereo illusion of depth, space, and instruments creating music, the spatial illusion alternates from wide, usually beyond the speakers, to very narrow, almost monaural.
At the same time the perceived frequency balance goes from neutral to shrill and back. And, every time the illusion opens up to full width, there sure seems to be more detail information available.
This alternation begins with fluctuations that take 10's of seconds and slowly stretches out to a stable state after 40 hours, with extremely detailed sound and very even frequency response. This happens with every audio device I make.
This includes the ones we build for guitar amps where I use the dielectric materials, the winding interleave and ratio of coupling area to primary winding depth to alter the tone characteristics that the transformer provides the amp. The same amp can be used for a modern high gain high distortion amp, change to an old style rhythm & blues / garage band rock and roll amp, or to a perfect Fender or Marshall, and then to the most useful all around amp you could imagine playing through. All from just changing the transformer.
All of this tone shaping is centered around the electrostatic moments and how the electrons interact with the dielectric materials. The change in characteristics over time and it's oscillation between two conditions, seems to me to point to a change in how the dielectric responds to the electrostatic moments. Is this a polarization, with subsequent attachment of electrons to the dielectric, in a matrix that allows ever smaller signal amplitudes to be signaled across the dielectric barriers? Or is it an elimination of polarization domains and an increase in information signaling, due to randomization of the rest state of the electrons on the ends of the molecules of the dielectric materials? Or is it something else that I have not yet understood, unrelated to any of this?
I don't have to know what is going on to predict the effects that various dielectrics provide, but it would be useful knowledge for developing more voices for the music industry and less voice for the audio reproduction industry.
Bud
Transmission line? How long are your cables?
@Bud: "Systems Concept and Components of Fractal Radio Electronics: Part I. Development Stages and the State of the Art," A.A. Popatov, A. Kh. Gil'mutdinov, and P.A. Ushakov, Journal of Communications Technology and Electronics, Vol 53, #9, pp 977-1020 (2008).
"Part II: Synthesis Methods and Prospects for Application," Journal of Communications Technology and Electronics, Vol. 53, #11, pp 1347-1394 (2008).
@Bud: "Systems Concept and Components of Fractal Radio Electronics: Part I. Development Stages and the State of the Art," A.A. Popatov, A. Kh. Gil'mutdinov, and P.A. Ushakov, Journal of Communications Technology and Electronics, Vol 53, #9, pp 977-1020 (2008).
"Part II: Synthesis Methods and Prospects for Application," Journal of Communications Technology and Electronics, Vol. 53, #11, pp 1347-1394 (2008).
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