fdegrove said:
Isn't this similar to the WMD argument the Neo Cons pushed a few years back with Iraq. "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."
See the problem with that argument is people use it as an excuse to not even consider the possibility of absence/no difference.
I would disagree with this 100%. Just because you hear something does not mean that there is even an analogous vibration to what you heard present in the room. In fact if I was to tell a person convincingly that they will hear something in a demo - some difference - I think it is very hard for that person not to hear what I am suggesting they will hear.
I Buried Paul
Key
AndrewT said:
I did not answer you directly but stated my opinion in post #4212.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1882665#post1882665
Andre Visser said:
You can't? Basically subjective listening tests are fallible. There are more than a couple instances on public record of people being fooled into hearing things that aren't really present on the recordings because of outside suggestion.
I mentioned "I Buried Paul" because of this. If you listen to that recording with the words "I Buried Paul" in your head at the time or on a lyric sheet in front of you, you can't help but actually hear the words "I Buried Paul". Now try it with a similar sounding sentence something like "I"m Very Tall". Now you can't help but hear "I'm Very Tall". You can actually "hear" both lyrics but which one is actually there? Neither.
To me this simple example exposed how susceptible our hearing is to outside or internal (our brain) suggestion.
Sigh. No, no, no.
Uncontrolled tests are demonstrably fallible. "Subjective" is NOT the opposite of "controlled." Controlled subjective testing is quite reliable and repeatable when done with basic care.
The trouble being that there are so few (if any) good, controlled subjective tests that show someone can pick cables.
If it's so easy, shouldn't there be more? Isn't this what Sy has been saying for years?
If it's so easy, shouldn't there be more? Isn't this what Sy has been saying for years?
Hi,
The goal of listening tests is not to test how gullible the participating subjects are to suggestion but to create an environment where they eventually can spot a difference between ab or x without any pressure from anyone.
No expectations, no suggestions, just listening and spot a difference or no difference.
As a sidenote: comparing speaker cable isn't the easiest way to go about testing audible differences in various wires and layouts.
Interconnects and especially low level ICs as intended for MC cartridges are that more obvious due to the amplification factors involved.
Cheers, 😉
Key said:
The goal of listening tests is not to test how gullible the participating subjects are to suggestion but to create an environment where they eventually can spot a difference between ab or x without any pressure from anyone.
No expectations, no suggestions, just listening and spot a difference or no difference.
As a sidenote: comparing speaker cable isn't the easiest way to go about testing audible differences in various wires and layouts.
Interconnects and especially low level ICs as intended for MC cartridges are that more obvious due to the amplification factors involved.
Cheers, 😉
Hi,
Been wondering the exact same thing for more than twenty years and haven't seen much proof of anything either way really.
After all those years I'm pretty certain of one thing though:
every single one of us perceives sound in his own unique way.
Cheers, 😉
panomaniac said:
Been wondering the exact same thing for more than twenty years and haven't seen much proof of anything either way really.
After all those years I'm pretty certain of one thing though:
every single one of us perceives sound in his own unique way.
Cheers, 😉
Anyway I guess I was more addressing the idea that anything you hear is measurable. I just don't think this is true. Your brain has the ability to fill in the gaps in sensory perception with what it wants or expects to hear and I believe it often does just that.
Hi,
Yes, we all tend to do that and that's what's makes silence such a formidable tool for writing a musical score for instance.....
Yet, we're once again entering the realm of psychological suggestion and expectation.
The day I walk the streets and believe I hear a live piano when in fact it is a replayed recorded event will be the day I'll tell myself hi-fi has progressed.
So far, all I've seen are mostly impressive looking specs but little music..........
Cheers, 😉
Yes, we all tend to do that and that's what's makes silence such a formidable tool for writing a musical score for instance.....
Yet, we're once again entering the realm of psychological suggestion and expectation.
The day I walk the streets and believe I hear a live piano when in fact it is a replayed recorded event will be the day I'll tell myself hi-fi has progressed.
So far, all I've seen are mostly impressive looking specs but little music..........
Cheers, 😉
Hi,
L, C and R are just statically measured values.
Send some AC signals through and all hell breaks loose.
Cheers, 😉
AndrewT said:
L, C and R are just statically measured values.
Send some AC signals through and all hell breaks loose.
Cheers, 😉
They don't have to be statically measured. A good (expensive) LCR bridge will measure the values at different frequencies - and can provide DC bias if need be.
With a good bridge you can see the values change with frequency. E.G., better caps such as teflon change less - electrolytics more.
I've never seen cables measured this way, but it would be nice to. Might bring a new meaning to "measures the same."
With a good bridge you can see the values change with frequency. E.G., better caps such as teflon change less - electrolytics more.
I've never seen cables measured this way, but it would be nice to. Might bring a new meaning to "measures the same."
fdegrove said:
Ha when things get too silent my mind starts playing/composing music. If I sit in a really silent room and stop thinking I will start to hear some of the weirdest music ever. I have always had a problem with "ear worms" (songs getting stuck in your head) but this is a little different because the music is original (improve based jazz) and I have never heard it before. But as soon as I start to try and control it or if I try to focus on it, it will get disrupted or stop. Some sort of meditation thing or something. Anyway big tangent and off topic but I have thought that if I could transcribe that stuff I would be a much better composer than I am.
Key said:
I agree. We had a high profile murder trial here which involved a recording of the first emergency call, a part was edited out as a policeman thought he heard the accused say something incriminating. The missing part was eventually released and the whole nation had a chance to listen, went on for days. There was no agreement on what was heard among 2 million odd people.
fdegrove said:
Hi fdegrove,
L, C and R are fundamental qualities that electrical theory is based on. The way they affect AC signals is well understood and can be measured. I don't think hell breaks loose.
panomaniac said:
I have a good enough immittance meter and did measure frequency dependent impedances (module Z and phase angle between voltage and current passing through the cable) for various speaker cables. Illustration of the procedure I posted here (post #18) http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145303 Unfortunately, I have found no correlation between good impedance measurements and good sound. The problem is in definition of good sound. People care more of the possible "blur" added to sound by one or another cable, rather than of the small top-end or low-end roll-off caused by the measurable C, L and R. Unfortunately, understanding the "blur" mechanism is much more complicated than impedamce measurements. Some contribution has been made by professor Malcolm Hawksford, but he addressed only electromagnetic wave propagation details in copper wire, while the effects of the conductor geometry, of insulator material also important, as well as connectors material, etc.
Key said:
Key, I agree that people can be fooled to hear things, especially on an unknown system, but when I compare different cables and cable topologies, I do it purely to learn something from it. I don't care about prices, brand names or any marketing claims, I'm only concerned about sound quality and the effect different cables have on it.
panomaniac said:
I'm confused, sometimes "nobody said that cables can't make a difference" the next moment there are no proof for that.
Where is the need to proof it anyway, if one are happy with his lamp cord and hear no difference with other cables, then use the lamp cord. The same goes when one can hear differences and decide by comparing different cables which one work best for him.
The reason for "and" is that many don't even bother to try because "there are no proof" or else they just belief what other say.
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