I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

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#3,861
SY said:


So you don't use preamps or any signal switching? No power amps? No crossovers or filters? And there's no switches or connectors in line with the signal during recording or mastering? Wow, that certainly limits your music and system choices.

Of course, if you believe that superposition is a bunch of hooey, the difference between 100 contacts and 101 is enough to ruin audibility, and all of the basic laws of physics must be rewritten because of some hifi guys playing with wires in uncontrolled tests, you're certainly welcome to that. Having some actual evidence of this remarkable claim would be helpful.

Please don't use the wine comparison. Blind testing is the norm in that world, and people who make and sell wine do that kind of thing all the time. If you want a sommelier certification, there's a long series of blind tests you need to pass. Somehow, despite the awful test pressures, artificial situations, not being at home, and god knows what else, hundreds of people have qualified for MS and MW certifications.
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You know what I mean is that as you say switches,connectors etc are all "bad"things.Addition of more bad things makes more harm without reason,since they can be avoided.The final sound of any equipment /cable combination is given.Any addition makes more harm.There are also many who claim connectors make a difference.
 
#3,862
DaveThreshold said:
I see what your saying. I want to have as few contacts in my system as possible also. The guy I mentioned was just one case also. I thought it was a funny example. For those who may not know what it is: The point of the ABX box is to get an instant comparison between the A. which is one cable or amp or something, and B which is the other one. Those two things you know about when you select them, and you can practice listening to them as much as you want, between tests. X is the box randomly selecting one or the other component, and from there you are to guess which one it is, as the box keeps track. The thing I hate about comparing any component, is the time delay of having to change wires, or amps or what have you. I would much rather have an instant comparison. FWIW, when I compare stuff, I do it with an auto repeat, of a 5-10 second passage. I try to focus on one thing, (maybe cymbals, because I used to play drums) and play that one passage, and then I'll try another.
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Yes,I know that the use of the box is to get an instant comparison between A & B.The thing is that between two items where differences might be small you don't add a third item that uses switches and bad wiring,set-up perhaps by people who don't accept differences between cables.Time delays between A&B listening might be prefered by many.A cable's sound or effect to sound is one determined by that cable between two components,and not one through a junk box.Saying that both cables are affected the same way,is irrelevant since both cables can be used without the box.
 
#3,863
SY said:


So you don't use preamps or any signal switching? No power amps? No crossovers or filters? And there's no switches or connectors in line with the signal during recording or mastering? Wow, that certainly limits your music and system choices.

Yes,there are those connectors and switches in line with the signal during recording or mastering.You dissagree that my and your music would sound better if they wern't?But,our music is what they give us and we can't do anything about it.Why add extra problems?
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#3,864
No, what I'm saying is that when signal path A has 100 contacts and signal path B has 101, the assertion that all of the differences were buried because of the difference between those two numbers is... extraordinary.

rdf's point is valid, though I think overstated- there's plenty of analog stuff like mikes, mike preamps, what-have-you, before the signal reaches the digital domain (where wire claims get even nuttier). However, much/most of the favored auditioning material was produced in "olden times." And the claims of wire magic go back at least 30 years.
 
#3,865
ShinOBIWAN said:
This thread is still alive after over 6 years of discussion?
Only one thing for it. Mods rename this thread please:
"I don't believe threads about cables make a difference, any input?"
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😀 I think today's situation is better than before the web. The HiFi mags/industry used to feed us all the information, there weren't many dissenting voices to be heard except from technical types outside of the HiFi world, and what would they know about what us golden eared audiophiles were into? We were waiting for science to catch up. 😉
 
#3,866
fredex said:
Hi Andre your experience has caused you to have a certain belief system but you may believe that this has no effect on what you are hearing....
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At least my believe system is based on my own experiments. 😀

Many of the results of tests I've done were in conflict with what I thought would happen, so there goes the generalisation of the 'expectation bias' theory. (I agree with yor statement but it is not always true.)

fredex said:
.....Of course if you go real small the sound is going to change so much that anyone would be able to pick it even in the most rigorous DBT. If you reduce the diameter (speaker cables) you will eventually notice a change in sound and it will be a freq response change. If the bass changes even slightly you may experience this as better or worse treble. If the treble changes you may hear this as better or worse bass.
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The cables I've used initially were 1.5, 2.5 and 4sq mm, the 1.5 giving the cleanest, more detailed HF and the 4, more punchy bass but HF sounded dull. I'm not claiming this to be true in all instances, the results may vary depending on personal taste as well as certain system qualities.

fredex said:
Now even though the cables you use are not extreme enough to grossly affect the freq response, your belief system is still alive and well and it will influence the sound you hear. The only way to take your belief system out of the equation is through a blind test.
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What make you think that I didn't?
 
#3,867
SY said:
No, what I'm saying is that when signal path A has 100 contacts and signal path B has 101, the assertion that all of the differences were buried because of the difference between those two numbers is... extraordinary.

I believe you place things on a wrong basis.The two cables are the only signal paths.Chosen system is what it is,with its switches,wires etc.....A cd player and amp cannot become any better than they are.We theoretically consider them as "reference" the same way as we do for our music,since they are chosen to be our means to test the cables.What's left are the two cables on test.No extra switches,wires etc....No 100 or 200 contacts.Do you see any problem if the "magic box"is not included in the signal path?
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#3,868
fredex said:


😀 I think today's situation is better than before the web. The HiFi mags/industry used to feed us all the information, there weren't many dissenting voices to be heard except from technical types outside of the HiFi world, and what would they know about what us golden eared audiophiles were into? We were waiting for science to catch up. 😉
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It's not the science,its the scientists that some times need to catch up.It is clear that scientists are or have their reasons if you like,to be selective as to which matters they will give priority to.Everything that science has proven,was always there,it just waited to be proven🙂
 
#3,869
SY said:
No, what I'm saying is that when signal path A has 100 contacts and signal path B has 101, the assertion that all of the differences were buried because of the difference between those two numbers is... extraordinary.
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Many years ago my then favourite speaker cables were a little bit short, leaving me with another set that sounded harsh to me, I decided to try and extend my cable with a relatively small length of the 'harsch sounding' cable. The surprise was that it sounded very similar to the harsh set of cable.

That will make me think twice before using a very convenient switch box.

Something else, I guess the source still have to drive both cables, only the output side get switched?
 
#3,870
Panikos: IOW, superposition is ignored. That's a complete revision of our understanding of how the Universe works. Please forgive me for being somewhat doubtful.😀

Many of the results of tests I've done were in conflict with what I thought would happen, so there goes the generalisation of the 'expectation bias' theory.
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Actually, you provided a perfect example of it. You expect to hear differences, even if none exist. That's exactly what happened. The only way to determine if it's an artifact of your brain functioning or some actual perceptible physical event is to have you listen and compare in a truly blind, well-controlled experiment. From your descriptions in the past, it doesn't seem like your tests were particularly blind or even moderately controlled. I've suggested better-controlled ways of testing; do it that way, show that these effects are audible, and you'll be taken seriously.

Yeah, after 30 years of null results, you're not going to find many scientists interested in spending professional time chasing this stuff. The ball is in the court of the claimants- come up with some positive results in a controlled test that are not due to EQ or really badly designed source components (vast minority).
 
#3,873
SY said:
Panikos: IOW, superposition is ignored. That's a complete revision of our understanding of how the Universe works. Please forgive me for being somewhat doubtful.😀



Actually, you provided a perfect example of it. You expect to hear differences, even if none exist. That's exactly what happened. The only way to determine if it's an artifact of your brain functioning or some actual perceptible physical event is to have you listen and compare in a truly blind, well-controlled experiment. From your descriptions in the past, it doesn't seem like your tests were particularly blind or even moderately controlled. I've suggested better-controlled ways of testing; do it that way, show that these effects are audible, and you'll be taken seriously.

Yeah, after 30 years of null results, you're not going to find many scientists interested in spending professional time chasing this stuff. The ball is in the court of the claimants- come up with some positive results in a controlled test that are not due to EQ or really badly designed source components (vast minority).
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Ther might be cases where someone claims to hear differences when:

1. They are there and hears them
2.They are there and he does not hear them
3.They are not there and hears them
4.They are not there and he does not hear them

I cannot understand why for a scientist,the correct is 3
 
#3,874
Panicos K said:
In any case I guess there will be a third cable to feed the box?Or is it a third cable at the box output to feed the speakers?
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What box? Define a set of attributes and needs of whatever box you have in mind, then its design becomes more evident. The first and most important step in design is to specify what the box you have in mind does and doesn't do ("Engineering Requirements"). The design of that box then becomes more evident.
 
#3,876
Perhaps some more expert can explain to all,everything about the switching box,what's inside,outside,and perhaps a picture of one in action.For me?You know I prefer delays between cable changes to a switching box,and so seems to be the case with Andre,Tube Guy and others.
You do not agree that everything science (scientists)has proven was there before science proved it was there?It was always like this,and always will be like this.
 
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