Defo said:
This is just an example of very annoying mindset, lazy thinking and a seeming unwillingness to read and learn. If you read (say) NP's article he demonstrates the measureable effects of cable RCL parameters at rf in conjunction with the load. Irrespective of the "internal" speaker cable the "external" speaker cable will have an effect on the overall speaker cable parameters. There is nothing particularly contentious in this. What may be contentious is whether these effects are able to be perceived when listening.
Rob.
Robert F said:
and yet, when people DO perceive differences, they are asked for measurements. when measurements are provided, they are asked whether the measurements are audible.
rinse, repeat.
some of the measured differences in the NP article are pretty extreme, and if they aren't audible, that's probably because of a listener bias that expects (nay, NEEDS to hear) no difference.
what is clear form the scientific analysis is that one speaker cable is not better than another unless the source and the load 'agree' on it's characteristics. what's good for the goose is not always good for the gander.
thetubeguy1954 said:
Um, these are the same people who perform SO BRILLIANTLY when they are told what they are listening to?
Isn't that a test too, of their perceptiveness, ego, and everything else? Yet now they are SO HAPPY to share with us the dramatic differences they can so easily perceive.
Let us remember that when subjects in sighted tests give result A, then the tester deceives them by secretly reversing the test conditions, these subjects continue to give result A even though they should be reversing their scores! What a joke! We are being asked to prefer THIS to controlled tests??
Whatever criticisms can be fairly argued against controlled tests, it is crooked argument to exaggerate them in an attempt to invalidate the whole process, when the sighted tests are completely and totally invalidated by problems that are THOUSANDS of times worse - no exaggeration!
dukeoyork said:
...and there's the rub. Even though there is real physics to describe the characteristics of a cable, there is NOTHING to guide an unwitting cable buyer towards a good fit to their components. Given the vast number of equipment combinations, this is impossible.
Most "audiophile" cable buyers are unwitting.A good dealer here is always needed for a few cable loans.
well, if speaker cable manufacturers would duplicate the tests done by NP as a kind of standard for speaker cable characteristics, ie. 'series impedance' and reaction to sweeps and pulses as seen by an oscilloscope, people who know about electricity could at least better judge a good match for their amp/speaker combos.
didn't someone on this thread mention that when they used one kind of cable, it made the amp clip more easily? i recall this person thought that was a GOOD thing! maybe i'm remembering wrong, but this sort of thought would be 'intuitive' to some. ie. hotter/'more power' is better.
more education is needed, i think. i don't believe it's impossible, just unlikely to ever happen.
until then, i will champion the subjectivists, the ear is the best judge, and the objectivists, you don't need to spend much for good results.
didn't someone on this thread mention that when they used one kind of cable, it made the amp clip more easily? i recall this person thought that was a GOOD thing! maybe i'm remembering wrong, but this sort of thought would be 'intuitive' to some. ie. hotter/'more power' is better.
more education is needed, i think. i don't believe it's impossible, just unlikely to ever happen.
until then, i will champion the subjectivists, the ear is the best judge, and the objectivists, you don't need to spend much for good results.
Ed Holland said:
I does seem difficult.
Here is a good article about interconnects and the complex problems they may cause or cure.
This is a least an engineering approach, like it our not.
http://www.soundstage.com/articles/pete01.htm
(From Cuibonos mother load cable bibliography)
dukeoyork said:
My experience is that cables usually have the same effect on different systems. If one cable can give more detail and focus than another, it is clearly a better cable IMO.
Andre Visser said:
well, that's pretty much my experience, but i live in 8 ohm land, and i'm generally talking about the difference between $20.00 cables and $20.00 cables.
i don't know, but i do know cables make a difference, LOL!
is the more expensive cable always better in your experience? have you ever compared DIY cables, like cat5 braids to exotic stuff? or my 12 gauge solid core housing wire or zip cord? i think i'm going to buy some 8 gauge zip cord, if i can find it, and see if i can get it onto the binding posts. i prefer to not use banana plugs, as they only weaken the directness of the connection. another obstacle in the circuit. a nice wrap around the binding post, and then tighten it down gently with a wrench or pliers is good as it gets, imo. i would put the wire directly on the speaker, and avoid the binding posts, if i could. maybe i will try that with the 8 gauge. i'd weld it on if i could.
rdf said:
Yes. The backroom discussion of what is the best cable to do the transfer is about as productive as this thread. We'll let you know what we decide but don't go holding your breath now, hear?
Panicos K said:
Well yes, although it is possible that the origin of the problem (tonal balance) can be somewhere else in the system.
dukeoyork said:
I've listened to some expensive cables that I would not use on my system even if I get it for free. 😀
Unfortunately my favourite cables are quite expensive, still saving for them. I've listened to a commercial braided IC cable but wasn't impressed, perhaps I will try cat5 sometime. According to me, you are going to lose hf detail with 8 gauge cable, if you try, please share your results.
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