Single listener tests are a different kettle of fish than the mass-slaughters perpetrated by Stereophile.
If my goal is to test the claims of "easy to hear" from a particular individual regarding a particular variable, then the tests don't have to be terribly fancy. If my goal is to test many individuals to determine the distribution (or even existence) of a sensitivity to a particular stimulus, then indeed a much more elaborate protocol is needed.
If my goal is to test the claims of "easy to hear" from a particular individual regarding a particular variable, then the tests don't have to be terribly fancy. If my goal is to test many individuals to determine the distribution (or even existence) of a sensitivity to a particular stimulus, then indeed a much more elaborate protocol is needed.
Brett said:
Brett,
I never posted anything that would imply either Dr Linkwitz or my beliefs would embrace the usage of Brilliant Pebbles, did I? Fact is I've previously posted here that I consider myself to be a rational subjectivist who believes there should be a scientifically valid, repeatedly verifiable, reason for everything we hear in regards to our audio systems. I don't ---{as some objectivists disparagingly claim about subjectivists}--- believe I have superhuman hearing capabilities, nor do I not believe in the validity of science. If you'll read post # 3181 it will explain my beliefs in a good bit of detail.
The main point I was making was Dr Linkwitz, couldn't hear a problem with his Orions on his own system & in his room. One would assume he was intimately familar with that system, no? Yet another person could hear the problem Dr Linkwitz missed! Therefore for dzzmiller to use Dr Linkwitz as an example of a pioneer who's interested in SOUND, has an extensive electronics background and yet does not think much of expensive cables and exotic products, wasn't a wise choice. Why? Because no matter how accomplished Dr Likwitz is in electronic and speaker design, we don't know how well he hears!
Dr Linkwitz even admits he addressed a problem with his Orion speakers that he never even noticed and hadn't picked up with his previous extensive measurements, that is until a friend who listened subjectively pointed it out to him. Furthermore the fact that even after it was pointed out to him, Linkwitz couldn't hear it at first, leads me to further question his hearing acruity. Please don't misunderstand me. I think the Orions are quite an accomplishment but creating something that sounds great doesn't imply great hearing. Consider Beethoven, he's widely regarded as one of history's supreme composers, and yet he produced notable works even after losing his hearing.
To me it seems the problem is some, not all, objectivists believe or imply when a person is a subjectivist who believes wires and audio components can and sometimes do sound different, ---{I have had a standing offer for the past 3-4 years to prove I can identify different IC's should anyone wish to come to my home. If they're ever on vacation in Orlando, Fla. they can email me for directions. Not surprisingly not one person has taken me up on my offer as of yet.}--- means they are all lunatic fringe subjectivists who believe in Brillant Pebbles, freezing photos in their refrigerators, clever little clocks, teleportion tweaks etc.
I find it sad that so many objectivists cannot discuss our differing POVs without having to belittle or disparage subjectivists in the process. I noticed that despite the fact that nothing I posted implied either Dr Linkwitz or myself embraced the usage of Brilliant Pebbles, you also immediately went to that exteme as a means to cast a shadow of doubt on what I posted.
Once again if you'll read post #3181 you'll have a link to an article I believe describes why there's such a gap between subjectivism & objectivism. I'm not seeking any converts. I have absolutely no problem with people embracing objectivism. Roger Russell ex-McIntosh engineer is a friend of mine and fellow member of the Central Florida Audio Society. He's about as objective as they come just read his webpage and you'll see he mirrors many of the objective beliefs here: http://www.roger-russell.com/ I just don't understand why it's so hard for people to accept this simple fact...
Dr Linkwitz's friend subjectively heard a problem that Dr Linkwitz's prior extensive measurements didn't reveal and he, himself didn't hear, until it was pointed out to him.
Thetubeguy1954
Key said:
Key,
You completely twisted what I said to fit your POV. I never said that at 6ft & 160lbs you could become a great Sumo Wrestler, but yes you could be a Sumo Wrestler if you chose to. What I actually said was "...some are better than others at that task and everyone improves with practice and a real desire to do so..."
Now if you'd consider what my actual statement was then you'll see that some Sumo Wrestlers will be better than you and some will be worse, but everyone, even you would improve at Sumo Wrestling with practice and a real desire to do so!
Thetubeguy1954
Haha, all this dualistic philosophy makes the non-conformist in me instinctively look for a third option. I'd probably put myself in the "I don't know" camp. I have put up my hypothesis here and what I have just found from my limited experience. But I am entirely open to the idea of being wrong about those ideas.
I sort of want to take you up on your offer it's just that drive is hellish and I am just not that concerned with it right now. But if you've waited that long maybe I will feel better about it after I am less busy.
I sort of want to take you up on your offer it's just that drive is hellish and I am just not that concerned with it right now. But if you've waited that long maybe I will feel better about it after I am less busy.
thetubeguy1954 said:
Sorry I think we might be just missing what the underline point of what we are both trying to convey.
I agree that with practiced listening and acclimation within a system you can hear things better or spot things that you couldn't before. But I guess my main point was that not everyone has the same frequency response to there hearing. And some peoples brains are just acclimated to a different sound. And I am not so sure that you can undo everything with practice.
dzzmiller said:
dzzmiller,
Droevig kan ik niet op iets antwoorden ik niet kan lezen.
Thetubeguy1954
Key said:
Hello Again Key!
I'd have to say I agree with you almost entirely. You're probably correct and many behaviors are so deeply engrained as to be almost impossible to unlearn or undo. Were we agree is not everyone hears the same or equally well. However with practiced listening and acclimation within a system you can hear things better or spot things that you couldn't before. As for some peoples brains being acclimated to a different sound, I believe every serious audiophile/music lover should consider the sound of live, unamplified instruments & singers, in a given acoustical space, to be the reference standard we should attempt to emulate.
However as it's absolutely impossible to know what space most music was recorded in as well as it's equally impossible to know where the mics were placed in that space, I believe one must attend as many events of live, unamplified instruments & singers, in as many different acoustical spaces as possible in order to educate their ear/brain as to the sound of these live, unamplified instruments & singers in as many different types of spaces as possible. If we can get our systems to get this reference standard correct it should get everything else correct as well.
Perhaps are beliefs are more similar than dissimilar?
Thetubeguy1954
First of all, I have read lots of your posts at Prop head, and you use labels in a disparaging way and as a weapon, so I am not interested in your use of them here. I have not labelled you anything, so please desist with regards to me. Your post clearly makes assumptions about me that you cannot back up.
As for the Pebbles comment, it was directed at the basis of this thread - cable audibility. When Dr L was pointed out something, he experimented and found a difference. However, as I stated before, there are decent engineering reasons why that would be so. If he had been told that putting Pebbles on his speakers worked, I somehow doubt he would have investigated it. If a similar engineering colleague had given me such a suggestion, without even something remotely plausible to back it up, I doubt that I personally would have wasted my time experimenting - get the difference? There are too many other things which DO make a difference to concern oneself about.
Even after asking repeatedly for something plausible apart from RLC and shielding (+ the obvious drive / receive interactions from use of said items) that could possibly account for audible differences people are reporting, those who claim large differences, newer seem to pony up with anything substantive.
Sorry, because someone misses something that they are not looking for, does not mean that they are faulty in their hearing. Example: how many people with excellent sight can misplace keys, which are found in an obvious spot they have missed? Note, that that was when they were even looking for them.thetubeguy1954 said:
As for the Pebbles comment, it was directed at the basis of this thread - cable audibility. When Dr L was pointed out something, he experimented and found a difference. However, as I stated before, there are decent engineering reasons why that would be so. If he had been told that putting Pebbles on his speakers worked, I somehow doubt he would have investigated it. If a similar engineering colleague had given me such a suggestion, without even something remotely plausible to back it up, I doubt that I personally would have wasted my time experimenting - get the difference? There are too many other things which DO make a difference to concern oneself about.
Even after asking repeatedly for something plausible apart from RLC and shielding (+ the obvious drive / receive interactions from use of said items) that could possibly account for audible differences people are reporting, those who claim large differences, newer seem to pony up with anything substantive.
Hi
Messing with my crossover I have just tried this "experiment"
I connected a paralel inductor differently on left and right speaker
To be more precise, the only difference was to connect the paralel inductor on different side of a solder joint between a series inductor and a series cap
Drawing below shows what I refer to
I was very clear that one speaker "sounded" different from the other
Well, actually more like a small annoyment in one ear
But its not like I actually HEAR the difference, but kind of a pressure like when you drive down a mountain, or maybe more like having water in one ear
There was pressure in left ear, so right speaker was preferred
And logically also where the paralel inductor belonged, with the series cap
Dont know how you will measure something like that
But its not hard to imagine all the strange sort of things that might have influence on sound reproduction
I do have a hearing damage and is exstremely sensitive to any kind of noise and sounds
So it may not matter equally much to all people
Messing with my crossover I have just tried this "experiment"
I connected a paralel inductor differently on left and right speaker
To be more precise, the only difference was to connect the paralel inductor on different side of a solder joint between a series inductor and a series cap
Drawing below shows what I refer to
I was very clear that one speaker "sounded" different from the other
Well, actually more like a small annoyment in one ear
But its not like I actually HEAR the difference, but kind of a pressure like when you drive down a mountain, or maybe more like having water in one ear
There was pressure in left ear, so right speaker was preferred
And logically also where the paralel inductor belonged, with the series cap
Dont know how you will measure something like that
But its not hard to imagine all the strange sort of things that might have influence on sound reproduction
I do have a hearing damage and is exstremely sensitive to any kind of noise and sounds
So it may not matter equally much to all people
Attachments
this is a joke, right?
C'mon... that's REALLY weak... so how'd you connect the "parallel" inductor? Any solder used?
anyone can screwup a solder joint... that's a no-brainer
you're not really serious about this being something fundamental, are you?
If I stand on my head, the music sounds different than when I'm upright. So what!
I guess in a cable thread, anything is OKAY... next we'll be investigating cables made from "dark matter"....
John L.
tinitus said:
C'mon... that's REALLY weak... so how'd you connect the "parallel" inductor? Any solder used?
anyone can screwup a solder joint... that's a no-brainer
you're not really serious about this being something fundamental, are you?
If I stand on my head, the music sounds different than when I'm upright. So what!
I guess in a cable thread, anything is OKAY... next we'll be investigating cables made from "dark matter"....
John L.
Re: this is a joke, right?
Why shouldnt I be serious
I have "advocated" lots of times the exstreme importanse of the left and right crossover in speakers should be mounted excactly alike
I suppose you wouldnt use one sort of cable in one channel and a completely different kind in the other channel
Well, I suppose you could
auplater said:
Why shouldnt I be serious
I have "advocated" lots of times the exstreme importanse of the left and right crossover in speakers should be mounted excactly alike
I suppose you wouldnt use one sort of cable in one channel and a completely different kind in the other channel
Well, I suppose you could
Attachments
Re: Re: this is a joke, right?
By your logic, they shouldn't be mounted exactly alike, they should be enantiomeric...
John L.
tinitus said:
By your logic, they shouldn't be mounted exactly alike, they should be enantiomeric...
John L.
How do you get your drivers to match so closely that the location of a soldered joint makes you think you hear a difference?
Wild, wild imagination.
Wild, wild imagination.
no, not the unknown, fear of...starts with an i and ends with y.
Maybe Sy can understand now my fear of being considered an audiophile - as this gentleman represents those considering themselves audiophiles.
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